Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
When none come out; what else can I do?
A simple yes or no would have sufficed.
Jesus tells us that Satan will not act against himself.
Would stopping something he started be against himself?
Quit 'hoping' and PRAY!
(I hear that Mary tends to listen to the prayers of good Catholics...)
Well; I didn't see it back then.
Do you think that MD's 'rebuttal' can be re-posted here?
I, for one (and maybe others that missed it) would like to understand it.
Did you get to read Mad Dawg's rebuttal?
Yes, that was the point of my reply, to avoid a double standard..
church leadership (Protestant or mainline Christainity) does their job in most cases I have seen.
Mainline Protestant homosexual bishops/priests/marriage, women bishops ? Benny Hinn? Paul Crouch, prosperity gospel? Aimee Semple McPherson, Robert Tilton, Ted Haggard, Eddie Long, Jim Jones...?
I do know of one case where a leader was removed from one church for public disgrace sin, and another church took him in as a pastor.
And how does a congregation, Protestant or Catholic, deal with sinners and repentance among its leaders? It is not a simple matter, nor one limited to Catholics.
thanks for your reply.
Fixed it!
Quite the fix!
I'll give the Genesis 3:15 question a shot, I've looked at it a bit.
We find "he" "she" and "it" in various translations. It seems the Greek is "he," the Hebrew either he or it. The Early Fathers and via the Vulgate look at this verse as referring to the Incarnation; i.e., not Mary or Jesus but Mary/Jesus and use "she," other translations used by Catholics, for example the RSV, use "he".
So, for Catholics, either translation. Further, Bishop Challoner in his revision of the Douay (c. 1750) states, "The sense [of these two readings] is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent's head."
So one may use he or use she while the proper understanding of the verse keeps in mind that it refers to the Incarnation. This verse is not to separate or put in opposition one part or the other of the Incarnation - mother or child.
This would be a problem, IMHO, only if one exemplifies the article of this thread in that: "With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary."
thanks for the question...
I think you have seen or will see some more.
Thanks for the ping.
I just searched back to that thread. I feel like I just went scuba diving in a sewer.
It is especially in teaching for commandments the mere tradition of the elders, (Mk. 7:2-16) and in fostering perfunctory professions when emphasis is placed upon ritual and form (which is not restricted to Rome), but God usually does works thru men, and intent does play a part, and in some things anointing is necessary, but a study of how God worked thru acts of men is more than i have energy for now.
But related to that i did a basic study years ago on acts in Acts http://peacebyjesus.tripod.com/actsinacts.html (sorry if you get pop ups; i have no control over that and my normal host was knocked 2 weeks ago, and i am waiting for him to get it back online)
And there, as they say, is the rub. From a Catholic perspective the Word says what it says, and has always said and not what the Reformers later "discovered" it says!". It is a question of authority. We Catholics believe that Jesus left us a Church with a teaching authority to prevent the issues associated with each persons experiences, biases, and limitations becoming his own personal Magisterium.
I am familiar with Darby and I reject outright his "discoveries" as they clash with the orthodoxy present with Church teaching since the first century. I do not doubt his sincerity, only his authority and therefore his accuracy. Neither he, nor you, nor I have been blessed with infallibility as the living consensus of the Catholic Episcopacy, the Magisterium, has been.
I sincerely do with you peace and beatitude.
Ha! Apt and ept.
| 1 | Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God say, `You shall not eat of any tree of the garden'?" |
| 2 | And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; |
| 3 | but God said, `You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" |
| 4 | But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die. |
| 5 | For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." |
| 6 | So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate. |
| 7 | Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons. |
| 8 | And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. |
| 9 | But the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" |
| 10 | And he said, "I heard the sound of thee in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself." |
| 11 | He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" |
| 12 | The man said, "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." |
| 13 | Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent beguiled me, and I ate." |
| 14 | The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. |
| 15 | I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." |
| 16 | To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." |
| 17 | And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, `You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; |
| 18 | thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. |
| 19 | In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return." |
| 20 | The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. |
| 21 | And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them. |
| 22 | Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" -- |
| 23 | therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. |
| 24 | He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. |
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| Chapter 3 |
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The serpent's craft. The fall of our first parents. Their punishment. The promise of a Redeemer. [1] Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise? [2] And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat: [3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die. [4] And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. [5] For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil. [6] And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat. [7] And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons. [8] And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise. [9] And the Lord God called Adam, and said to him: Where art thou? [10] And he said: I heard thy voice in paradise; and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself. [7] And the eyes: Not that they were blind before, (for the woman saw that the tree was fair to the eyes, ver. 6.) nor yet that their eyes were opened to any more perfect knowledge of good; but only to the unhappy experience of having lost the good of original grace and innocence, and incurred the dreadful evil of sin. From whence followed a shame of their being naked; which they minded not before; because being now stript of original grace, they quickly began to be subject to the shameful rebellions of the flesh. [11] And he said to him: And who hath told thee that thou wast naked, but that thou hast eaten of the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat? [12] And Adam said: The woman, whom thou gavest me to be my companion, gave me of the tree, and I did eat. [13] And the Lord God said to the woman: Why hast thou done this? And she answered: The serpent deceived me, and I did eat. [14] And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. [15] I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. [15] She shall crush: Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent's head. [16] To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee. [17] And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. [18] Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth. [19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return. [20] And Adam called the name of his wife Eve: because she was the mother of all the living. [21] And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them. [22] And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. [23] And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken. [24] And he cast out Adam; and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. [22] Behold Adam: This was spoken by way of reproaching him with his pride, in affecting a knowledge that might make him like to God. |
The Revised NAB has an inclusive and non-gender translation which I dislike. They and their
It's stunning to see lengths you're going to defend satan as a miracle worker
Name the ACTUAL miracles that satan worked that is written in the Bible.
Stfassisi-”A non answer means you doubt your faith.””
Elsie-”A statement like this makes me DOUBT you passed Logic 101.”
Psychology 101 - a person who attacks someones logic usually has underlying reasons and doubts of their own beliefs,so they try to alter the discussion by these attacks.
A confident person in their beliefs wants to share them with others.
It is indeed good for people to marry, if they are free to do so, and of course willing. This was not the case with Luther and, especially, his lover.
Your opinion of my Holy Church are of no concern for me.
I still have no clue what is it you want from me or what your objections to my posts are. Again, your opinions are of no interest to me, unless argumented.
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