Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
A careful - UNbiased - read through history more than adequately shows that genuine Christ-like faith and behavior peeks out only occasionally from the "fathers" of the faith and the further they get from the first century church the further their thoughts and musings evolve away from Biblical Christianity.
A few comments on this statement of yours. First of all, the definition of "dogmatic teaching" in Catholicism is NOT concrete, but fluid. Lots of things changed. For example, during the Inquisitions, the leadership of the Catholic Church was fully behind the things that were being done. Sure, it's easy to say you wouldn't condone something so terrible NOW, but back then, they thought they were in the right! According to them they weren't doing anything that wasn't "dogmatic". Too bad the dogma didn't match the Scriptures. Jesus NEVER said to do what they did. He preached love, remember?
The same thing with "indulgences". Now, I know some people like to claim not everyone was on board with the abuses, but the Pope at the time sure knew about them and the money went for the rebuilding project of St. Peter's Basilica. These things were done and taught at the INSTITUTIONAL level - not a few bad apples out of the laity. The leaders did these things and nobody had the power to stop it BUT the leaders.
Imagine if Peter and James had gone through with the mandatory circumcision of Gentiles in order to become Christians. If Paul had no authority and no recognized Holy Spirit leading to correct them, I wonder if we would STILL have that as an "ordinance"? The very leadership of the Roman Catholic Church DID - by decree - many of the things Catholics look back on now and regret and deplore. So, DID these men have the authority of Jesus to do these things based on their position? Because THEY determined they could? I don't think so. The Bible didn't give them that, they ignored the Bible and did what they thought was best. And here we are centuries later and it STILL makes the Church look bad - it's probably the FIRST thing a non-believer asks, "What about the Inquisitions?". So, again, this concrete dogmatic teaching is not so solid as you might think. Having the Scriptures as our rule of faith helps to ensure orthodox beliefs. Place it as second fiddle to "tradition" and the "magesterium", and you invite wrong teaching and wrong behavior.
You’re right...SHOULD be.
As I've followed this long and mostly irrelevant thread it's quite plain that the “gotcha” and “one upsmanship” comments are attempts at personal put downs not debate and that's the reason I've stayed (mostly) out of it. It's distasteful.
The pagan origin of the symbols of Easter and Christmas are well known to Catholic, Protestant, atheists....scholars of all persuasions. The really debatable point is whether it should matter to anyone. I think it most certainly should no matter others opinions.
So you agree with:
“All of the Lent and Easter abomination is pagan and God clearly condemned it in scripture.”
“God doesn’t smile down on people who celebrate Easter.”
Preach it, sister.
You speak for me as well.
“Religion doesn’t mean anything. Church membership doesn’t count. Denominations are meaningless. Buildings are not the true church.”
I stand by that.
Now, prove to me why it is not true.
Even though it's only 2013,that will be hard to beat as the understatement of the century!
The one event we know we are to commemorate is Christ's death so no other can claim Scriptural support for Christians.
There is the larger point: Christ said God must be worshiped in spirit and and truth, that being the case how can we in good conscience mix the false pagan practices with the truth of christian worship? As Jesus said, a little leaven ferments the whole loaf.
As has happened.
Count me in,though I think bb knows this already!
Romans 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you
Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel
Philippians 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind
1 Peter 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous
Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?
Error comes in when people don't know Scripture, thus establishing it as the standard of truth by Jesus' own words.
Agreed and those with "ears to hear" will hear it.
I'll courtesy ping Cynical Bear since you are again making him the subject of this thread.
My words are in response to NO spin and they are at odds only, it seems, with your own ill-presumed "facts".
I don't "reject" the Apostles' Creed, per se, but there are a few words and lines I take issue with. The history of this creed shows that it did NOT originate with the Apostles at all, so I keep to what Scripture says to know if I believe what they did. We don't "recite" the creed at church, if that's what you're asking.
I guess you could say I "note" Christmas and I celebrate it as an opportunity to remember the greatest gift of God He ever gave mankind. I don't make a big deal out of Santa and reindeer and all the merchandising that goes with it - it has done more to FURTHER the world from the reason for the season. I DO like snowmen and collect a Christmas edition of a certain designer. I like to line them up on the mantle - though with hubby's new bigger screen LCD TV, half of the mantle is covered up, so I didn't bring them out this year. As for Easter, again, I celebrate the resurrection of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - but I do that EVERY day, not just once a year. I don't observe 40 days of Lent, give out Easter baskets, have Easter egg hunts on my lawn, hire an Easter bunny or worship the goddess of Spring.
I hope you have realized by now that Cynical Bear was really saying the same things. He certainly added that he doesn't condemn people if they want to do these things, but he isn't shy about giving his opinion about their origins nor his thinking that God is not pleased by the false and pagan practices that some churches do. I think you probably agree with his points, but you have taken the tirade too far to admit it.
20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.
26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
The Holy Spirit is given to all believers and leads them all into the truth. It isn't just for the church leaders or disciples to pass on to others in apostolic succession.
There is some teaching that Jesus' promise of the Holy Spirit leading into truth and bringing to remembrance all things that He taught was just for the disciples, but it's obviously not.
The believer can depend on the leading of the Holy Spirit to teach him.
Indeed it has!
Hi Pete!
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