Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
No organized RELIGION.
The local body of believers, the assembly of believers, has some organizational structure as outlined in Scripture.
It is just you and whatever version of the Bible you approve of?
Contrary to RC's assertions, the different versions of the Bible do not vary all that much, except the Douay-Rheims Bible which has some of the worst mistranslations of the Greek.
But since there is an abundance of resources online that can take one back to the original Greek and Hebrew, and there are Greek and Hebrew dictionaries and concordances, it is easy to do word studies in the original language and get a better sense of what the meaning is.
Not to mention, the leading of the Holy Spirit in guiding believers into all truth and enlightening them.
1 Corinthians 2:14-16 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
I have looked at this latest version of the RF "never ending thread" and see the same ground plowed over and over. But here's a matter I'd like you to expand upon.
Are you saying that God allowed His Truth to be pasted over for centuries - that He permitted generation after generation to live without access to Him? Are you saying that the traditions of men thwarted the desire of God that all men be saved?
Actually God had true believers during all those years. The Catholic Church martyred many of them as heretics. It was the Catholic Church who barred the reading of scripture by the lay people as much as they could. It wasn’t God who restricted those generations from access to His word. His truth didn’t get “passed over for centuries” regardless of attempts by the RCC. It wasn’t until the ability to mass produce the written word that many of the errors of the RCC were brought to light for a greater number of people. That also brought about the greatest number of true converts to Christ. We are now in the falling away period.
>> Are you saying that the traditions of men thwarted the desire of God that all men be saved?<<
As it did when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees.
“If pagan religions resemble Christianity in any form (and they do!) [highlight mine]
Of course it was surrounded by reams of “explanations” as to why that didn’t matter.
“The local body of believers, the assembly of believers, has some organizational structure as outlined in Scripture.”
Now you see, some of the goofy people here say that there is no address for the “true church”, you seem to be saying there maybe. Is there some special label we should look for? Like maybe the “First Bible Church” or “Free Baptist” or “The Elders of Zion”? Or do we just have to sample this or that odd non-denomination group until we find one that doesn’t celebrate Christmas, Easter or do anything else “pagan”?
True God does desire all to be saved but He is quite clear that this is not to be the case, in fact the majority would not be on that narrow road. Hence Jesus compared our day to that of Noah when the vast majority were not saved.
The great Catholic thinkers have decided that the pagan practices can some how be cleaned up and made Christian despite Paul’s words to the Corinthians.
Aaron tried that with the idol golden calf. No matter how it was excused it was pagan and condemned by Jehovah (or Yahweh).
But you now, again, believe what you said?
“All of the Lent and Easter abomination is pagan and God clearly condemned it in scripture.”
“God doesn’t smile down on people who celebrate Easter.”
(I ask because you spent some time on this thread denying you said these thing.)
Christians may worship any day since no command was given as to which day of the week. Easter/Christmas are admittedly pagan. Perhaps you should read what the Catholic Encyclopedia says of the name ‘Easter’ and the use of rabbits and eggs during Easter.
And perhaps too review what Paul said about fellowship with pagan darkness of unbief.
I came across this great explanation that might help you realize the mistake you’re making about what you’re calling pagan holidays..
“Christ can purify and reclaim anything with its roots in human culture, just as He purifies and reclaims everything with its roots in our human nature. He’s the incarnate Savior. He has assumed (taken up and transformed) our human nature. It’s what He does.”
This should make perfect sense to you two because God made the days(pagans don’t own days) and nature and all these things are under His power to transform.
Don’t expect me to get in a long dragged out debate on this since this perfectly explains the subject.
And perhaps too review what Paul said about fellowship with pagan darkness of unbelief.
“Don’t expect me to get in a long dragged out debate on this since this perfectly explains the subject.”
As you wish but your “great explanation” explains nothing. But it is right up there with Aaron’s “great explanation”.
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.
Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.
In English:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen
That’s nice. The Scriptures really are sharper than any two edged sword and divide truth from falsehood.
Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
He also said to observe only those things He commanded to do and not to add or take away from them. So He continues in Dewuteronomy.
Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Can you find from scripture where God instituted any of the “feast days” you celebrate? He did have something to say about them.
Isaiah 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
He said to destroy all the ways of the heathen or there would be consequences.
Ezekiel 20:7 Then said I unto them, Cast ye away every man the abominations of his eyes, and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. 8 But they rebelled against me, and would not hearken unto me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said, I will pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt. 9 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, among whom they were, in whose sight I made myself known unto them, in bringing them forth out of the land of Egypt. 10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.
And lest you think that’s all Old Testament stuff and not relevant after Christ. Paul was still keeping the old feasts but no where is mentioned of any new.
Acts 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Jesus kept all of the old feast days commanded by God and taught the apostles to do the same. Then He sent them into the world with this command.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
No the those who celebrate other “feast days” need to show from scripture where Jesus instituted other feast days that are observed today or consider that God’s disdain for them still stands.
Not against His own word He can’t.
But...
...wouldn't that require some type of self control?
It’s the “nah-nah boo-boo” effect of shunning..:) Guaranteed to make said Freeper curious, furious, and spurious. Or something.
No, I'm not. There is no address for the true church, which is the body of Christ, as it is made up of all true believers throughout the church age.
Is there some special label we should look for? Like maybe the “First Bible Church” or “Free Baptist” or “The Elders of Zion”? Or do we just have to sample this or that odd non-denomination group until we find one that doesn’t celebrate Christmas, Easter or do anything else “pagan”?
Religion doesn't mean anything. Church membership doesn't count. Denominations are meaningless. Buildings are not the true church.
The true church is an organism, not an organization.
1 Corinthians 12:12-31 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
And I will show you a still more excellent way.
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