Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
Catholics get this?
1 Timothy 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.
Are you kidding me?
And from this:
1 Timothy 2: 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Catholics get this?
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
Unbelievable!
Catholics need to chuck the “Catholic version” in the trash and begin to study the real scripture.
I can play that game too, but I tire of the obtuse quickly.
The phrase "Mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43) does. Accepting for the moment your Nestorian premise that there were two Jesus, which one was St. Elizabeth referring to, the human Jesus or the divine Jesus?
And for the sake of accuracy we are not discussing the English phrase "Mother of God", we are discussing the word Theotokos. Peace be with you
The problem with that verse is that we don’t know whether Elizabeth was meaning “master” or “a person exercising absolute ownership rights; lord (Lord), or something different. The word used was kurios for which several interpretations can be found here: http://biblesuite.com/thayers/2962.htm
Using that verse without the whole of scripture is useless.
Yes, we were. That's what I started out discussing.
If you've changed the discussion to something else, this is the first I've heard of it.
In Scripture, the Holy Spirit calls her *mother of Jesus*.
John 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
Acts 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.
Scripture is clear in calling her *mother of Jesus* not *mother of God*.
Not only is the RCC calling Holy Spirit a heretic for using that term, but also John and Luke.
You know what? I'm keeping pretty good company with that crowd.
The Catholic church can label us all *Nestorians* or *heretics* or whatever label they want to slap on someone who disagrees with THEM. It doesn't disagree with Scripture so I'll wear the label of *heretic* like a badge of honor.
It doesn't mean I'm wrong, all it does is show that I don't agree with the Catholic church. Big deal.
If it's good enough for the Holy Spirit, it's good enough for me.
The Catholic church's problem is that instead of correcting any erroneous teaching about who Jesus was, it went and relabeled Mary, making her into something she never was to begin with and it's done nothing to rectify the incorrect teaching about Jesus and everything to lead to incorrect teaching about Mary.
“... it was doing the will of Christ in preserving the faith in purity”.
Nonsense! The Inquisition was a corruption of the faith and can no more be dismissed as simply “fallible men acting fallibly” than can Judas’ actions. Doing murder and torture is not Christ’s will. It disqualifies one from entering his kingdom.
Rev. 21:8 groups murderers along with those without faith, those that are disgusting to God and whom suffer eternal destruction.
Your statement above is absolutely astounding. These people had God’s law clearly stated and claimed to represent Him so saying they were no worse than someone else is condoning what Christ condemned.
Murder preserves the ‘purity of faith’? I would laugh except I think it’s such an absurd slander of Christ.
Clear out the homosexuals and there will be no Catholic church in America.
And have you checked to find out if many of them actually claim to be based on the Bible?
Every 'cult' on that list is far more bible based than the Catholic religion...
Repeat: Faith and Works are required for salvation.
Every we time we don’t perfectly live up to standards; i.e., fall and sin, we go to confession ...
Faith and works are required for salvation because we have free will. If our will chooses to sin, we turn away from God and jeopardize our salvation. Salvation IS NOT assured - see Revelation 20:12-13 - dead are judged according to their deeds.
Also -Phil 2:12-13 work out your salvation in fear and trembling - doesn’t sound guaranteed.
It is Catholics who have been duped into believing this...Put down your catechism and pick up a bible...It's there for all to see...
Saints are simply holy people who have been saved. So Catholics know saints are im heaven.
But you don't know if any Catholics are saints in heaven...
That escapes every Catholic I have ever talked to...They seem to believe that their best shot is getting 'close' to Jesus and then eating Him whenever they go to Mass...
And I guess the results don't last very long because some of them go back for another helping the next day...
Repeat
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
Those were Jesus words. Got anything better?
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The means by which we are saved is an unwavering faith in Jesus.
John 6:38-40 Jesus said, “I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day”
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
Acts 13:39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
1 JOHN 2:12 I write to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.
Hebrew 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Relying on some legal earthly act is law not grace and faith.
And how do we know?
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
The Holy Spirit said it, I believe it, that settles it. Looks like a pretty solid guarantee to me.
Besides, who said Protestants were any better? God didn’t say error was restricted to some man made organization. And when did we start with “they did it too” to make us feel better?
They more than had God's law. They claim to have WRITTEN God's Law; the Scripture that condemns the heinous actions perpetrated by the Catholic church against God's other created being, other men and women created in the image of God.
The only thing that's more of an abomination than the *Church* and I use the term loosely because the body of Christ would NEVER have behaved in such a fashion, inflicting the Inquisition on mankind, is that there are people still out there who CONDONE it by excusing it, calling for it again, calling for the eradication of *Protestant vandals*, etc.
The Inquisition is a black mark on the face of Christianity and the Catholic church is responsible for it and no amount of dodging, evading, excusing, or blame shifting can change that.
The Catholic church was WRONG. Period. End of story.
OK. So then you're saying that salvation is NOT by works?No - I said what I said. Trying to read my mind or putting words into my mouth are forms of making it personal - and against the rules, as I understand them.
What I said is what I posted. Your efforts to avoid answering me are noted.
Ephesians 1:13-14 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
1 John 5:13-15 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
We are saved in spite of the fact that we can still commit sins. It's not on again, off again salvation. We have DIED to sin, our lives are hidden with Christ in God. We have the righteousness of Christ credited to our account because God has canceled the record of debt that stood against us.
Colossians 2:13-14 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Romans 6:5-11 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 2:8-23 8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
Colossians 3:1-4 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Why is it that I have no problem with what you choose to believe, and certain people seem obsessively offended by their misunderstandings of what Catholics choose to believe? There are sooo many truly offensive religions, where Jesus is either completely omitted, or misused for individual self gain and manipulation, why Catholics?
1 Corinthians 2:14-16 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
The passages together are what creates the message being told by the Apostles, and the context of the story is important.
In the first chapter of his first Epistle to the Corinthians, Paul exposes and then confronts the problem of divisions within in the church at Corinth. He renounces divisions as contrary to the gospel. Further, Paul implies that the underlying problem is pride. Individuals took pride in the one whom they chose to follow. As Paul later says, they have “become arrogant in behalf of one against the other” (4:6). In verses 18-31 of the first chapter, Paul argued that pride and the gospel are incompatible. The world will never esteem the gospel or those who embrace it because it is contradictory to all they highly esteem. The Jews, who are impressed by power, wanted signs (of power). A crucified Christ was certainly not a demonstration of power but of weakness. The Greeks were impressed by intellectualism, by wisdom. To them, there was nothing wise about the gospel. It was foolishness to believe that faith in a crucified criminal could save anyone from their sins.
Why did the Catholic church change Mary’s title from *mother of Jesus* to *mother of God*?
Did the Holy Spirit get it wrong when He breathed out Scripture and called her *mother of Jesus*?
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