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Catholics, Protestants, and Immaculate Mary
The Catholic Thing ^ | December 8, 2012 | David G. Bonagura, Jr.

Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer

Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.

This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.

The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.

By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.

Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.

The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.

Called (from the series Woman) ©2006 Bruce Herman
  [oil on wood, 65 x 48”; collection of Bjorn and Barbara Iwarsson] For more information visit http://bruceherman.com

This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.

Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.

Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”

Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.

If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.

Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.

God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: mary
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To: mitch5501; presently no screen name
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
2,961 posted on 12/29/2012 6:52:17 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
Revelation 3:8 "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown...Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Rev 3:8,11,12)

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? (1 john 5:5)

This is the work of God

Grace and peace

2,962 posted on 12/29/2012 6:53:32 AM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: mitch5501; presently no screen name; CynicalBear; boatbums
I think the definition is that with the truth,God's truth,salvation is the first thing settled,with any cult,it is the last.

That is a great observation, a very concise definition.

Cults always leave you hanging, never knowing if you've done enough, and of course, the cult gets to determine just what it is you have to do.

God says...

1 John 5:13-15 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

That includes giving us eternal life as it is God's will to save people.

2,963 posted on 12/29/2012 6:56:48 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Iscool
No amount of twisting can deny what Jesus Christ Himself said. The Self Alone folks like to pretend they can take portions out of context and using their Lego Block Method of Scripture Interpretation build whatever fantasy best suits their preconceptions.

As always, that only shows that such folks cannot ever address a direct quote of Jesus Christ without trying to pretend that either Christ was too stupid to know what He was saying, or that Scripture does not mean what it clearly says. That's the only defense those who worship their own, Most High and Holy Self have, diversion and attempts to hide the actual words of Jesus Christ.

Why would anyone who actually believes that Jesus Christ is God take a clear, explicit, statement by Jesus Christ Himself saying He is God and play their little games to avoid that clear statement by Jesus Christ Himself? There's only one reason anyone would do that; they follow Eve rather than Christ and cannot accept His Word.

John 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch.
John 10:24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said to him : How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense ? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them : I speak to you, and you believe not : the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me.
John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice : and I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:28 And I give them life everlasting ; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all : and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father.

All it takes is the single statement by Jesus Christ Himself and the Self Alone crowd go into a frenzy of distortion, diversion, and anything else they can think of to avoid admitting that Jesus Christ is God.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Once again, as is so often the case, the Self Alone folks contradict Scripture whenever it suits their Self Worship agenda.

2,964 posted on 12/29/2012 7:03:16 AM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: mgist
Criticism and judgement of christians who haven't sinned against you, or hurt you directly, is NOT christian.

YOUR bible seems to DISAGREE!

If those 'christians' are spouting FALSE doctrine; you damn well BETTER speak up against them!!!


 
Acts 17:18-19
 18.  A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.
 19.  Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?
 
Acts 18:11
    So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
 
 
 
 
 
Romans 15:4
 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
 
 
Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
 
 
1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
 
 
1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.
 
 
Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
 
 
1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.
 
 
1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
 
 
2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
 
 
 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.
 
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
 
 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
 
 
Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
 
 
Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
 
 
Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
 
 
 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.
 
 
 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
 
 
2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.



2,965 posted on 12/29/2012 7:03:30 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
"God says..."

"...Be not afraid, only believe." (Mark 5:36)

2,966 posted on 12/29/2012 7:03:46 AM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: Natural Law
I have been educated, nor indoctrinated. catholic teaching is never contrary to reason.

QUICK!

Will SOMEone please drill a hole in my heAD BEFORE IT EXPLODES!!!

2,967 posted on 12/29/2012 7:05:10 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: CynicalBear
Not sure why you sent me that.

It's a red herring.

A statement designed to get you off the trail and into doing something else.

2,968 posted on 12/29/2012 7:06:52 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Natural Law
Scripture proceeded from Catholic teaching.

B O O M !!!





Too late...

2,969 posted on 12/29/2012 7:11:04 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: stonehouse01
Luke 18:9-14 9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Galatians 2:15-16 15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Here in Ephesians Paul says that salvation is not by "works". He did NOT say "works of the Law" or "the Law" but simply "works", thereby including anything that man would add.

Ephesians 2:8-10 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

What Jesus did with the beatitudes was not establish another system of works but cut to the heart of the Law, to show us what God's standards really are and how we cannot reach them. Paul was a Pharisee of the Pharisees. He understood the Law and the purpose of it.

Galatians 3:21-25 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a lawhad been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Jesus didn't come to establish another Law which could not save anyone. If that was the case, He might as well have saved Himself the trouble of instituting the OT Law and gone right for this in the first place.

But no works, no matter how good and how pure the intent can save anyone.

Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Forgiveness can't be earned. If it is, it's not forgiveness but wages due.

2,970 posted on 12/29/2012 7:11:30 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
For those who need to hear it from the CCC themselves.....

Isn't ONE exploding head good enough for you people???

2,971 posted on 12/29/2012 7:12:44 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Rashputin
Notice how the point is ignored.

Yup

2,972 posted on 12/29/2012 7:13:33 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: count-your-change
Christ gave an unambiguous answer to your question,

Yes; He DID do that a lot!


 

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


1 John 3:21-24

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.


2,973 posted on 12/29/2012 7:15:31 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: count-your-change

Kinda cuts to the chase; don’t it!


2,974 posted on 12/29/2012 7:15:49 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Rashputin
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Humm... that's funny; it doesn't read 'mother' to me?

2,975 posted on 12/29/2012 7:17:05 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom

“Do you simply believe everything you read or someone tells you just because?”

Like your canards about what the Catholic Church teaches? What odd cult or weird website teaches you these falsehoods that you repeat here?


2,976 posted on 12/29/2012 7:20:22 AM PST by narses
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To: narses
What odd cult or weird website teaches you these falsehoods that you repeat here?

This one....

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1D.HTM

If you check my posting history, you'll find my comments about Catholic teaching back up by this site only. Knowing the neighborhood so well and the shrieks of *anti-Catholic website* that so often pass the keyboards of Catholics, I use that site only for doctrinal issues.

In order to distinguish what I post from that site, vatican.va, I post the references from it in green.

If you peruse my posting history, look for anything posted in this shade of green and check out the website address. It will verify what I'm saying.

2,977 posted on 12/29/2012 7:30:32 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

From everything I’ve seen the “mother of God” term goes all the way back to the council a Ephesus when they were trying to placate the populace that worshiped the “queen of heaven”. The merchants who made the trinkets were upset that they were losing income from people who converted and no longer needed them.


2,978 posted on 12/29/2012 7:35:57 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: mgist
a. When you talk about another Freeper, ping him/her.

b. Do not make the thread "about" individual Freepers, that is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

2,979 posted on 12/29/2012 7:37:01 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Elsie
>> It's a red herring.<<

That’s pretty much what I thought also. Trying to deflect. It’s the old “they do it too” meme.

2,980 posted on 12/29/2012 7:38:31 AM PST by CynicalBear
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