Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
Ah, a little loophole there. It s those who THEY DECIDE are pretending to be Catholics......
That opens the doors to making it for everyone.
It is an internal ecclesial court.
So, torture and murder are justified within the church by which of Jesus' teachings again?
Thank you.
Did you ask narses?
John 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
Acts 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.
The phrase, *mother of God* does not show up in Scripture anywhere.
I'll go with what God called her instead of what man made up about her.
Well, iscool, it looks like the "Church" has branded the Holy Spirit a heretic, one of the Nestorian varieties.
What chutzpah, thinking they can correct God or improve on what He said.
I have GOD'S Holy Spirit Inspired WORD and that is ALL I need. I'm FOCUSED on Jesus ALONE - not man. There is NO ONE like HIM!
OK, I’ll ask narses myself, as I’m sure she’s been following this conversation....
Narses, am I on your ping list or have I ever asked to be on your ping list?
Sadly the list you posted has many duplicates on it, thus making it look like there are more cults than there actually are.
And have you checked to find out if many of them actually claim to be based on the Bible?
Many of them also to not claim integrity to Scripture but instead claim to preach a *restored* gospel, depending on extra-Biblical revelation. That disqualifies them from being classified as “believers in Jesus alone” or “Jesus only, bible truth” type Christians.
You’ll have to try harder to discredit those who are saved by grace through faith in Christ for salvation.
Amen!
"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2)
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." (John 17:17)
"...as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,That he might present it to himself a glorious church..." (Ephesians 5:25-27)
Thank you! There it is! I know exactly how Paul felt about such things. Praise God!
"What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?" Romans 8:31
That verse alone ought to settle all the issues with the authority of Scripture over tradition, but it won't. Here are some more.
John 8:31-32 31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
2 Timothy 3:14-16 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 4:1-4 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
and yet...
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ (Ephesians 3:8)
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. (Isaiah 64:4)
That list largely shows what happens when people follow people instead of working out their own salvation,with fear and trembling.The word cult gets thrown around a lot and it's definition seems to be whatever doesn't agree with me.I think the definition is that with the truth,God's truth,salvation is the first thing settled,with any cult,it is the last.
It doesn't matter what those in heaven can do or not do. It's a matter of obedience. Obedience is better than sacrifice. God KNOWS best - no matter what 'man' says.
Awesome!
"And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:15)
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13)
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed" (John 8:36)
"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:16)
"...put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ..." (Romans 13:14)
"He must increase, but I must decrease. (John 3:30)
That list of cults was created by non-Catholic Christians and the links on the actual site reference evidence for their false teachings. It is a real problem.
I really don’t have to check them because I am not vulnerable to the wayward leanings of men who claim to own gospel truth, and aren’t accountable to anybody. I know what my Catholic church represents, and it cannot change depending on the church or priest.
Other churches can claim whatever they want. For example, This is what one Pentecostal movement says about the Trinity, “Who was manifested in the flesh? - Oneness teaches God is one person only, who was manifested in the flesh. How does Oneness explain many manifestations simultaneously?” God does not change. http://www.christianresearchservice.com/OnenessPentecostalism.htm
“The Trinity” isn’t in the bible, so people can easily be duped. People can rationalize anything, one way or another. Catholics do not claim to know who will be saved or not, because that is for God to decide. Pretending to have control over these things is not only offensive to God, but also dangerous in the hands of the wrong people.
Humanity’s first sin was to want to be like God. Remember that Satan questioned God’s will, then he openly lied to Eve, contradicting what God had said. Then he used the tantalizing bait that humanity could be more like God. Knowing man’s heart and circumstances is something that only God can do. Nobody knows who God will save or not. We just have to try to do His will, and sanctify ourselves as much as possible. We are all called to be Saints.
Saints are simply holy people who have been saved. So Catholics know saints are im heaven. We believe that there is a spiritual battle and those in heaven are fighting for us. In Matthew 17, the Apostles saw Elijah and Moses, along with Jesus after His crucifixion and we saw in Revelation 12:7 “Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back”.
Remember the devil’s great sin was pride - he wanted to be God - Humility is the opposite of pride, and it counteracts the devil every time. Submitting to God’s will in everything, even suffering, is humility to the max. Mary said, “Be it done to me according to thy will.” Jesus said, “Not as I will, but as thou will.”
All that doesn’t even address the fact that many of the cults listed appeared more than once, giving the false impression that there are more than there are.
And it behooves anyone to check so that they aren’t open to the charge of slandering someone by simply repeating what someone else has said without checking for themselves, thereby being open to the charges of spreading slander and gossip and bearing false witness.
Do you simply believe everything you read or someone tells you just because?
“..The Catholic church teaches salvation by works...” The Catholic Church does not teach salvation by works. If that were the case, atheist new agers would get to heaven based upon “random acts of kindness” which would be universal salvation. The Catholic Church does not teach universal salvation, although there are many liberals who are trying to change that from within.
The Catholic Church teaches Faith AND works together. See the beatitudes, for starters - these are works required, not just suggested.
It seems that this post, number 2,853 escaped your attention as you have not yet answered it.
I'll repost it here for you......
NL (post 2849): One is either in Communion with the Church or is not. There are no shades of gray.
mm: So, just what does *being in communion with the church* entail?
Does that mean agreeing 100% with the CCC?
OK, what is the official stand on hell? Is someone who doesn't agree with that in communion or not? Does that mean if someone doesn't agree with the church position on hell as stated in the CCC, that they aren't in communion and therefore are not saved?
What's the official position on Limbo? Is someone who doesn't agree with that in communion with the church? Does that mean if someone doesn't agree with the current official position of the RCC on Limbo, that they aren't in communion and therefore are not saved?
What's the official position on Mary (as if I have to ask)? Does that mean if someone doesn't agree that Mary was perpetually virgin, that they aren't in communion with the church and therefore are not saved?
What about the immaculate conception? That if someone doesn't believe that she was immaculately conceived and remained sinless, that they are not in communion with the church and therefore are not saved?
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