Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
OK, I'll ask it....
You've use the term *self worship* term several times now. Would you please define what you mean by “self worship”?
Who is it that engages in *self worship*? Those who don't follow the teaching and interpretation of the Catholic church?
If a person makes a personal decision to follow the Catholic church, how is that not self worship? Is not a personal decision still a personal decision regardless of the direction it takes?
Courtesy ping to CB.
Neither does trinity, but it is certainly contained within Scripture AND the Traditions of the Church.
One of the problems you seem to keep repeating is using English as the baseline for the translations and attempting to execute word-for-word translations of idiomatic phrases (Strong is guilty of this too). Theotokos does not translate directly into English. The title Theotokos (Θεοτοκος) is a Greek word that means "God-bearer" or "Birth-giver to God." As the First Council of Ephesus rightly concluded that to deny this title substantially alters who Jesus is and denies the hypostatic union. Remember Jesus asked many times "Who and I?" and "Who do the people say that I am?", he never asked "What do the people say that I teach?".
Peace be with you
Quite frankly NL many on this thread couldn't give a flying frigata what some psychologist thinks.
I'll let Paul Harvey have the last word... "If I were the devil.......in His own churches I would substitute psychology for religion..."
Isn’t it interesting that because the RCC has condemned someone as a heretic the Catholics think that all will think it’s somehow going to be taken seriously by non Catholics? An obvious indication to me that it’s the RCC they follow rather than Christ.
Faith without works is meaningless but that does not mean the works save. It means the works are the evidence of the faith qualifying as being saving faith. It's faith that produces action, but that action does not save, but rather the quality of the faith that produces it.You get close to what the Church teaches with that. See http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm for a thorough exploration of what you may be trying to say there.
IN BRIEF 2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life. 2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high. 2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man. 2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy. 2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life. 2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom. 2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. 2024 Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us. 2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God. 2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God's gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God. 2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. 2028 "All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity" (LG 40 § 2). "Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none" (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.:PG 44, 300D). 2029 "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24).I could easily point out the flaws in the rest of your meandering and odd attack, but let's just start with where you come close to stating what the Church teaches and see what you can make of the Truth.
Philippians 2:13 ... for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Ephesians 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Romans 4:1-12 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Galatians 3:1-10 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Except of course you misrepresent or distort what the Church teaches with claims like:
“..The Catholic church teaches salvation by works...”
See my excepts and links to what the Church really teaches above.
Why do you make claims about the Church that you have been shown to be false, again and again? What motivates that kind of behavior on your part?
When one is the One and Only arbiter of Truth, well One can do whatever One wants, no?
>> The Bible is very clear about testing all things<<
Wait! What? Against what standard are they to “test”? Surely you’re not referring to “judging” are you?
You don’t say! So it’s our works that is “responsible” for us attaining salvation? At least in part?
Wow! Scripture alone is the test ey?
Quite frankly that is of no importance or consequence in this discussion. Scripture contains many references to psychological disorders and mental illnesses. Psychology is nothing more than a behavioral science in which the actions and reactions of humans and animals are studied through observational and experimental methods. Although it is not a "hard science" in that the standards of repeatability and reproducibility are rigid and is subject to a significant number of variables. That said it can broadly be used to characterize and predict behaviors and diagnose a number of conditions and disorders. That said there have been more than a few FReepers that were clinically "Bat Guano".
Peace be with you
Any thing that is added to faith is what is being depended on for salvation.
It is saying that faith by itself is not enough, you have to add
If you all add baptism, then it's the baptism you all are depending on, not faith in Christ.
If it's good deeds, then that is what you all are depending on because you all don't believe faith is enough.
Faith is enough.
In what post? The only difference I see is stylistic: "omnipresent" is seen as attribute of God ans therefore confusing.
Luke 17:23
But in the case of Eucharistic Christ I know where He is, because He told me: "This is my body" (Mt 26:26, several similar).
They were people professing to be Catholic convicted in an internal Catholic court for being not Catholic. Those who denied being Catholic were released.
Looking in Scripture there are several verses that seem to be saying different things. In the book of John it explains that whoever believes in Jesus will have everlasting life. (cf. John 3:16) Then in the book of Romans it explains that one is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. (cf. Romans 3:28) Taking these two verses alone it appears that all we have to do is believe in Jesus in order to be saved, and this belief is apart from any works or action on our part. However, one cannot just look at two verses out of context if one desires to understand the message that God wishes to reveal to us. There is a unity in all of Scripture that must be taken into account in any interpretation. (cf. CCC 112) Looking further in the Scriptures we find in the book of John that every man will be repaid according to his deeds. (cf. John 5:29) Then in the book of James it goes even further to say that man is “saved by works, and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24) Obviously there must be some connection between faith and works.
The same people who lie about the RCC, are the same people who take apart gospel passages and manipulate the bible to their audience.
Yes, like in any justice system, the purpose of punishment is for the public good.
A witch at the time was not understood as a separate religion, but as a Catholic woman possessed by devils.
God hears us. Why would a loving father not hear and answer our prayer?
Luke 11:1-13 Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” 2 And he said to them,
“When you pray, say:
“Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread, 4 and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.”
5 And he said to them, “Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves, 6 for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything’?
8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs. 9 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
OK, my example was bad. The point is that I know Christ is in the Eucharist from His own words: “This is my body”, and similar.
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