Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
One can only believe that if we look “through” a mirror.
That is my point. We look at an image of God, but the situation resembles a mirror.
You must then also believe that Paul was literally crucified with Christ.
We are crucified with Christ, true, but in Galatians 3:1 the reference is to Christ Crucified "set forth" "before their eyes". They were looking at a crucifix.
Say it ain’t so!! A belief of Catholics that isn’t in scripture? Why I never!!!! Well, bless your heart!
BTW Is the woman clothed with the sun of Revelation Mary?
It looks O’Keefeian...
At least you now recognize that the Early Church Fathers were Catholic. That's progress.
Peace be with you.
Routinely. What we have here is the pattern I often observe: the poster appears not to understand the argument so that he doesn't have to concede it. The poster makes a sacrifice for his cause as he does look dumb; we should respect the selflessness of this rhetorical device. On the other hand, I appreciate the opportunity to repeat the point: repetitio mater studiorum est.
Indeed it has; and quite nicely at that...
(Your stuff is better documented than a lot of Catholic claims... snicker)
By this statement, found on WIKI, I can assume that he was NOT a CAtholic...
Your English teacher called.
She wants to review your old paperwork.
Sure it does!
Any other of the eight remaining, up for ignoring any time soon?
Sure!
It's also possible that ancient aliens imitated the Holy Spirit with Mary, too!
If you accept that ol' Joe had been married before, and had FATHERED CHILDREN, don't you think that having a FRESH, young wife, APPARENTLY still 'intact'; would have interested him in SOME manner??
Since you asked, “If you accept that ol’ Joe had been married before, and had FATHERED CHILDREN, don’t you think that having a FRESH, young wife, APPARENTLY still ‘intact’; would have interested him in SOME manner?? “, I will attempt to answer in as “thoughtful” a way the question demands.
Your question is, basically, “Did St. Joseph have lustful thoughts for Mary?”
I don’t know, and I don’t think it’s relevant. Just because a man has lustful thoughts for a woman doesn’t mean he must act on them. If it does, if we are slaves to our sexual desires, then we are no different than an animal.
Now, if I interpreted your question incorrectly, just say so and also rephrase your question if you want a different response from me. Otherwise, again, I do not see how the physical attraction a man may have for a woman necessarily proves they had relations.
Wouldn't matter...We not only know that Mary had a 'cousin'; we know that Jesus had brothers, 'and sisters'...
People are forever tearing up this brother thing to try to prove something that isn't true, but what about the sisters??? Sisters in the Greek means blood sisters...
The Catholic Church has the deposit of faith, "the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 1:3). Some of that faith is recorded as the New Testament and some is not. Practical activity of the Church, such as prayer, liturgy, iconography and fasting are not things that needed to be recorded since they are practical skills. Other elements of faith develop over time; so, the Age of Martyrs, -- 2nd through 4th centuries, and intense veneration of saints resulting from it, -- are simply out of scope of the scripture. The Church never claims that the entire Tradition has been in scripture form, only certain parts, necessary to be committed to writing for our salvation.
Is the woman clothed with the sun of Revelation Mary?
Of course she is. The vision is preceded by a vision of the Heavenly Church: "the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple" (Rev 11:19, further quotes are from Rev. 12); the woman is a mother who "brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne"; -- these are references to Christ and His ascension, so the woman is His mother. Further, Satan "went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". Here her son is identified directly as Jesus and this makes her identification as Mary complete.
A few things are worth noting. The woman labors in pain, which is unlike the physical birth of Christ which we believe was not painful to Mary; however, Mary was in anguish as mother of crucified Christ all her life; in fact, Holy Simeon testified that her "soul a sword shall pierce" (Luke 2:35); we see in the labor pains of Rev 12:2 a reference to pains of the Old Testament Church bringing forth the Savior.
The woman is assumed to "desert" (verse 14); that reflects the Catholic belief in Mary's assumption. Satan is angry at her and vomits slanders (verse 15) -- this is a prophecy of Protestant lies against her. The woman has many children "who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ", that is a reference to the Catholic Church to whom she is mother (John 19:26-27).
The woman is Mary, but also it is a synthetic picture of the Catholic Church, with which Mary has such a close relationship, and of the enemies of Christ who inevitably become enemies of Mary.
Thanks for the reply. This is the only portion, if true, that could possibly be "damaging" to the Church's claim of Mary's perpetual virginity.
So I ask, "Got any proof of that?"
As to the Thanksgiving analogy I’ll not respond as it’s totally irrelevant and unconnected.
>>CynicalBear, do you believe in the Trinity?<<
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
>>Christmas celebration?<<
Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."
Gal. 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
>>What church do you belong to?<<
The one and only true catholic (universal) church and it consists of all those people who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior regardless of what organization they belong to or don’t belong to. Portions of that church are in different locations as we see for instance in Revelation 1.
Christ is the head of the whole church, not some fallible Pope, and Christ surely doesn’t need a stand in.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. (not the preeminence of the Pope)
1 Cor. 12:8 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. (not as it hath pleased the RCC)
Eph. 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
No more “church” hierchy to approach God for us or “representative” of Christ here on earth and Jesus is our only High Priest.
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
1 Pet. 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
We have our own Shepard and “Bishop” in Christ.
1 Pet. 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
We no longer need the “rituals” of the Old Testament, or the hierarchy of the Priests and Bishops of the old Temple.
The Holy Catholic Church is not at liberty to alter in any way the commandments given us by Christ. The commandments given the Jews in preparation of His coming, all 600-plus of them, served their purpose for the time they were given and were all fulfilled with the establishment of the Church, which now is the sole rule of faith (Matthew 16:18-19, 18:17-18, Acts 20:28).
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