Quoted “The bottom line here is that mormons have not offered those who do not share their faith the choice of a)conversion or b)death.”
C “What do you then call the Mormon narrative of baptizing the dead?”
We don’t give the option of Death...
It was just too fun to say! (forgive me for a sense of humor!)
C “Let’s assume for a moment that this narrative tracks reality...I know that’s a long stretch...but stay with me here.”
C “Mormonism claims that when we die, we ALL initially go to the same Spirit World. We’re supposedly ghettoized there, of course. The good Mormons will allegedly eternally “progress” out of there toward the two higher kingdoms; and basically honest religious people can still make the middle kingdom.”
Boy do you have that wrong, but go on...
C “Anyway, Lds believe that Lds spirit missionaries (yes spirit missionaries) will visit the non-Mormons in this spirit world...at least they’ll visit those who have had a proxy baptism done on earth on their behalf.”
Again, BZZT! Wrong!
C “Now the vocab won’t be “convert or die”...but the bottom-line net effect of their “offer” is exactly that.”
C “Either you as a spirit in spirit prison in the spirit world convert to Mormonism then and there...or you will spiritually die by risking continued alienation from the Mormon jesus and perhaps even risking outer darkness...which, tho, is usually reserved in Mormonism for Mormons who apostatize and demons.”
Third Strike and you’re out! (Stop teaching Mormonism long enough to learn it, OK?)
C “I mean, c’mon Ouderkirk. If somebody put you in prison, and told you the only way out was to convert to their religion, what kind of a so-called “choice” is that?”
OK, Let’s start at death.
You’ve got Paradise and Spirit Prison, you die you go to one or the other.
What determines that? your conscience which isn’t gonna lie for ya.
Those in Paradise can go on missions to to spirit prison, they teach everybody the Gospel, there will be many who won’t accept/believe it.
Baptism, being an ordnance of the flesh is performed by living people in proxy for the dead who may, or may not be waiting for it.
The dead choose whether or not to accept the ordinances performed for them, some will reject it and it might as well not have happened, accept that we have been commanded to do it and give them the choice.
Jesus does not come into the picture until the final judgement See Revelations 20:11-15 http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rev/20.11-15?lang=eng#10
When men are judged out of the book of life according to their works. (It’s in the bible, don’t get mad at me)
Outer darkness, Satan will be cast there, and only those who chose him over God will join him, Cain for example. The number who “qualify for this is really small like five or less out of the whole world. Even Hitler does not qualify, We’re talking a really exclusive club that you don’t want to join here.
There are three main kingdoms, not two. the kingdoms have many sub kingdoms (my fathers house, many mansions... sound familiar?)
As for the Ordinances for the dead, if we’re wrong, then who cares! we’re wasting time doing useless work in temples you don’t want to enter anyway and staying off the street doing less missionary work, it’s a win- win for you!
There, Tried to fix it, but WOW! let us tell people what we believe... please?
Delph
“We don’t give the option of Death...”
Now, that right there was some funny... bumper sticker worthy even!
Here’s another one:
A Mormon left a note on my door the other day. It read: “Sorry that we missed you, but don’t worry, we’ll be back for you, in this life or the next!”
“Jesus does not come into the picture until the final judgement”
Hey! There’s something you and I can agree on that a lot of Catholics and Protestants can grumble over with both of us. Woohoo!
“When men are judged out of the book of life according to their works. (It’s in the bible, don’t get mad at me)”
Yes, that’s in there, but that’s the second resurrection, so you’re skipping ahead a bit. The second resurrection is for those who are not raised in the first resurrection, so it is only for the non-saved. Christians won’t be judged based on their works, with their salvation dependent upon them. Christians are pardoned because they are washed clean in the blood of the Lamb, and their works are simply measured to see what their station in the Kingdom of God will be.
“As for the Ordinances for the dead, if we’re wrong, then who cares!”
Yes, I agree, who cares? I think it’s goofy and unbiblical, but it wouldn’t do me any harm if it was performed for me, so why should it bother me? Getting mad about that would seem to me like an atheist getting mad when Christians say that we’ll pray for them.
Ok; does you BELIEVE the words of BY when he warned you of your impending damnation?
#356 PRICELESS!
Sorry, but you're quite incomplete in teaching the official version of Mormonism on this...you say NOTHING of "the spirit world" in your response...plus you make it all out to be two things (paradise and spirit prison)...when Joseph Smith taught both of these were "one"...the world of spirits!
Source: Official Lds church magazine, Liahona Magazine
The Spirit World, Our Next Home(The OTHER World Series: Mormon beliefs beyond this world)
Here...read it for yourself:
According to Latter-day Saint doctrine, the spirit world is the place of residence for ALL those who have died and are awaiting the resurrection and the inseparable connection of their spirits and bodies. Thus, it is not the place where God the Father, the resurrected Lord, and other resurrected beings dwell. Rather, it is an intermediate condition or state where people await the resurrection—a sphere where disembodied spirits live in one of several conditions according to what their mortal lives have merited... In short, the spirit world is the temporary home of the spirits of ALL mankind, whether they are good or evil. Thus Joseph Smith could declare that “the righteous and the wicked all go to the SAME world of spirits until the resurrection.” (Teachings, p. 310.) Yet some have wondered why Jesus promised the dying thief that after his death he would join the Savior in paradise. The Prophet Joseph taught: “King James’ translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? It is a modern word: it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made use of. Find the original of the word paradise. You may as easily find a needle in a pile of hay. Here is a chance for you to argue with me, ye learned men. There is nothing in the original word in Greek from which this was taken that signifies paradise; but it was—This day thou shalt be with me in the world of spirits: then I will teach you all about it and answer your inquiries. And Peter says [Jesus] went and preached to the world of spirits (spirits in prison, 1 Pet. 3:19), so that they who would receive it could have it answered by proxy by those who live on the earth, etc.” (Teachings, p. 309.) Moreover, the Prophet added: “Hades, the Greek, or Sheol, the Hebrew, these two significations mean a world of spirits. Hades, Sheol, paradise, spirits in prison, are ALL ONE; it is a world of spirits.” (Teachings, p. 310.)...President Young confirmed that the spirit world “Is on this earth.” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 376.) (Liahona Mag, 12/77)
Those in Paradise can go on missions to to spirit prison, they teach everybody the Gospel...
From the above linked source:
The Latter-day Saint view of the spirit world reveals that there is missionary work being performed there. The most magnificent and extensive missionary program the mind can contemplate is centered in the spirit world.