Following-Truth:5 Facts That Must Be Ignored BeforeAccusing CatholicsOf “Mary Worship”[Cath & Open]

Following the Truth.com ^ | Jun 19th, 2012 | Gary Zimak

[Salvation]

5 Facts That Must Be Ignored Before Accusing Catholics Of “Mary Worship”!

Jun 19th, 2012

by Gary Zimak.

I love the Blessed Mother! There…I said it and I’m glad I did! As a Catholic, I’m so blessed to be a member of the Church that truly honors and respects the Mother of my Lord and Savior. I must admit that, even though I’m a cradle Catholic, I didn’t always feel this way. In fact, for most of my life I didn’t understand Mary’s role or care about her too much. What a mistake! Now, after several recent accusations of “Mary worship” on my Facebook page, it’s time to stand up for my “Mom”. And, even though I love her and want to defend her honor, I have no intention of getting nasty. Rather, I’d prefer to present 5 facts about Mary. Before you accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, I ask you to take a long hard look at these facts. They have a way of poking holes in the theory that we place too much emphasis on Mary. If you still want to accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, then I suggest you ignore these facts!

1. God Sent The Savior Through Mary – I list this one first because it’s really tough to downplay Mary’s importance while acknowledging that the long awaiting Messiah came to earth by being born of a woman…and that woman was Mary. Out of all the ways that Jesus could have come to earth, why was Mary chosen? If Mary was important to God, shouldn’t she mean something to us?

2. Jesus Performed His First Miracle At Mary’s Request - This is another good one. Oh I know, Jesus didn’t need Mary to turn the water into wine at Cana. She just happened to be there. OK, why then did St. John list Mary FIRST in his list of wedding guests?

On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; Jesus also was invited to the marriage with His disciples. (John 2:1-2)

If Mary is not important in this saga, why is she listed BEFORE the apostles and BEFORE Jesus? St. John the Evangelist was not known for inserting extraneous details. Mary is listed first because John wants to call the readers’ attention to her presence at the wedding.

But what about “the rebuke”? You know, the argument that Jesus was telling Mary to “butt out” when He stated:

“O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” (John 2:4)

Jesus was a devout Jew and an obedient follower of the Ten Commandments. Why would He publicly dishonor His mother in violation of the Fourth Commandment? Secondly, if this was such a “put down” by Jesus, why did He go ahead and perform the miracle of changing water into wine? Wouldn’t that have been the end of the request. Of course it would, unless He wasn’t putting Mary down. When His mother interceded on behalf of the couple, Our Lord decided that His time had now come. Don’t you think Jesus is trying to tell us something? Isn’t is probable that Jesus waited until Mary’s request, in order to show us her intercessory power? Doesn’t that explain why St. John listed her first among the guests?

3. Jesus Gave Mary To John From The Cross – As He suffered and died on the Cross, Jesus made a very profound statement:

When Jesus saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing near, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. (John 19:26-27)

Why, while struggling to speak as He hung on the Cross, would Jesus have spoken these words if they didn’t mean anything? Could He have been making small talk? Obviously, there was a reason that Our Lord did what He did. The Church has always believed that John represented each member of the Church and that, from that moment on, Mary became our spiritual mother. Scripture tells us that, on that day John accepted Jesus’ gift and “took her to his own home” (John 19:27). Shouldn’t we do the same?

4. Jesus’ First Graces Were Given Through Mary – This is a fact that frequently gets overlooked by those who wish to downplay Mary’s importance…and it comes straight from the Bible! After accepting God’s offer to become the Mother of the Savior, Mary traveled “in haste” to visit her relative, Elizabeth.

And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the child leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1:41)

According to this Bible passage, before Jesus was even born, Mary’s voice was used to deliver the graces to Elizabeth. Why? Because she’s not important? Isn’t there some other way, these graces could have been dispensed?

Not convinced? Listen to what Elizabeth had to say (also directly from the Bible)…

“For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy.” (Luke 1:44)

It’s pretty hard to deny the importance of Mary’s presence and voice in dispensing these graces to Elizabeth. Did the graces originate from Mary? No, they obviously came from Jesus. However, He chose to have Mary make the journey and use her voice to deliver them. Why? Because He wants us to realize that she is important!

5. Jesus Christ Is The Sole Mediator Between God And Man - Now, this doesn’t make sense. How does this help to support the Catholic position? This is why we Catholics “have it all wrong”, isn’t it? Sorry if I’m bursting anyone’s bubble, but Catholics absolutely believe that Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) clearly states this belief:

Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners. (CCC 2634)

This Catholic teaching is supported by the following Bible passage:

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all. (1 Timothy 2:5-6)

Although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, that doesn’t preclude others (including Mary) from being involved in a subordinate mediation, or intercession. Saint Paul, who made the above statement, is obviously aware of that fact since he several times urges his readers to pray for each other (Romans 1:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:25, 1 Timothy 2:1). The Catechism refers to this type of intercession as being a “participation in the intercession of Christ” (CCC 2635) and is put into practice each time we pray for one another. Asking Mary to intercede for us in no way takes away from Jesus’ role as mediator between God and men.

While I’m not naive enough to think that listing these 5 facts will render me immune from further accusations of “Mary worship”, I do think that they will have an effect if looked at with an open mind. Sacred Scripture does not contain a lot of words about Mary, but what’s there is powerful. Theologians have spent 2,000 years studying her Biblical appearances and will continue to do so. We can learn much by studying Mary’s role as documented in the pages of the Bible. If anyone wants to accuse me of being a “Mary worshiper”, I ask you to first look at these 5 facts. If you still want to point a finger, you’ll need to ignore these factual statements…

because accepting them will seriously undermine your credibility!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Now you can say with full confidence that you are familiar with at least one verse.”

Well, no I cannot, since the prayers were to God and not to saints. I suppose you could argue that the elders smelled the prayers of the saints...

Try again.

I will assume that you must also believe ALL Christians are saints, based on this verse? Which they are.

[verga]

Let me explain this to you (interpret scripture for you) The elders received the prayers and presented them to God.
For what ever reason(s) not all the prayers went directly to God they went to the elders.
<>P>As far as ALL Christians being saints I would say many have the potential to be. Some as you know are Christian in name only.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Let’s run through your verses, since not even one teaches us to pray to departed Christians - or that the can hear our prayers:

Rev. 5:8 - prayers to God are offered as incense. It does not say any of those prayers were offered or heard by the 24 Elders.

Rev 8:3 - ditto- angels are fulfilling a priestly role - it does not say the prayers in the form of incense were prayed to angel or that angels hear our prayers.

Rev 6:10 - martyred Christians cry out to God for justice - no indication is given that they watch what happens on earth, or pray for others. In fact, they are crying out for God to carry out judgement.

Luke 15:7, 10 - ah yes, rejoicing in heaven over a sinner who rejoices! Beautiful. Yet no mention is made of Christians in heaven. Nor is this indicative that anyone prayed to a departed Christian or that their prayers could be heard.

I Timothy 5:21- again, no evidence that angels are to be prayed to, or more importantly here, that any departed Christian is to be prayed to or can even hear your prayers.

We do know that God hears our prayers and that we can enter before His throne in boldness to petition Him.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Good explanation in a succinct way.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Let me explain this to you (interpret scripture for you) The elders received the prayers and presented them to God.”

This is an assumption from silence- since the text doesn’t say that. Arguments from silence are never used as a basis of doctrine - or any assumption could become a doctrine.

[Skooz]

BFL

[Salvation]

Education of the masses, of course.

[Salvation]

Great post.

[Salvation]

And since Jesus is God, the second person of the Holy Trinity, then Mary is absolutely, the Mother of God!

God bless!

[Melian]

I believe John represented the faithful remnant of the Church and Jesus was giving Mary to the faithful remnant of His Church to be our mother.

John was the only apostle who remained completely faithful to Jesus to the end, just as the Catholic Church is the only Church which adheres to ALL Christ taught us. John heard Jesus say things no other disciple heard; the Catholic Church still hears the words Christ uttered that no other church will recognize or remember.

We were given Mary’s love, our Lord’s only earthly possession, just as John, the only true Follower was given His mother. Christ loved Mary and John and gave them to each other. He loved His new Church and He entrusted love of her to us.

[PeevedPatriot]

I didn't say those verses teach us to pray to saints or angels. I was responding to your comment that you weren't "aware of any Scriptures that say the dead hear the pleas of the living". I gave you some and you chose to interpret them differently than many others more learned than I have interpreted them. You are free to do so :)

Here's another passage I find very interesting. In Luke 16 Jesus gives us the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. After both have died, the wealthy man asks Abraham to send Lazarus with a bit of cool water, and his request is denied. Then he asks Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers to warn them. And again the request is denied.

Does Jesus command us to pray to saints in that parable? No, not from my vantage point. But does he indicate that intercession by heavenly beings is possible? Yes, it seems to me that he does. You, of course, are free to disagree :)

In closing, I'd like to reference one of my all-time favorite verses, Hebrews 12:22-24: "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel."

I love that verse! For me it summarizes what we as Catholics believe takes place at every Mass when we join the Church in heaven to praise and adore our triune God. Mass is truly a meeting of heaven and earth. Now I understand you likely don't agree with that, but I hope that helps you understand that we Catholics don't view our deceased fellow Christians as dead but MORE fully alive in Christ in heaven than they were on earth.

To Salvation, thank you for the kind email but I am not permitted to respond due to being a noob. May the Peace of Christ be with you :)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“I hope that helps you understand that we Catholics don’t view our deceased fellow Christians as dead but MORE fully alive in Christ in heaven than they were on earth.”

I hope you realize that all Christians believe Christians who have passed away here are alive in heaven. :-)

I believe it too - but also that they have no “inside straight with God” that you yourself as a believer have to approach God’s throne in boldness because of Christ.

I find it amazing that God’s inspired and Holy Word never commands Christians to pray to departed Christians, nor encourages us to pray to departed Christians - nor angels. If this was important at all - or was a possible source of aid - God would have done so. He doesn’t.

Instead, we are commanded to pray ourselves and assured He will hear and answer. That is a blessing.

blessings to you.

[verga]

This is an assumption from silence- since the text doesn’t say that. Arguments from silence are never used as a basis of doctrine - or any assumption could become a doctrine.

Seriously, that is your position. Let's look at the text in context:

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense,

Golden bowls full of incense being held NOT by God but by the elders who are presenting them TO God. Clearly God does not have them since there would be no need to give them to God.

Now let's see what could those bowls possibly contain? Hmmmm let's see what could they possibly be?

which are the prayers of the saints.

Oh that's right they are the prayers of the faithful (saints). So to recap the 24 elders are presenting prayers to God from the faithful. They are acting as wait for it......mediators.

[PeevedPatriot]

I believe it too - but also that they have no “inside straight with God” that you yourself as a believer have to approach God’s throne in boldness because of Christ.

Now I think I understand you from another angle. No wonder it makes no sense to you that I would ask someone in heaven to offer up a prayer on my behalf. I believe that those in heaven have the veil lifted, can see more clearly, and can approach God in ways that I cannot do here on earth.

I also believe as you do that I still have to approach God "in boldness." But sometimes I want reinforcement and ask others to assist me with their prayers, those who I believe are now in God's presence in a way I cannot be while on earth.

I find it amazing that God’s inspired and Holy Word never commands Christians to pray to departed Christians, nor encourages us to pray to departed Christians - nor angels. If this was important at all - or was a possible source of aid - God would have done so. He doesn’t.

The Lord commanded us to pray to "our" father not "my" father, and so I am comfortable with a communal aspect of prayer, both with my fellow earthly pilgrims and those who've traveled into eternity ahead of me.

You believe that God's instructions/commands must be contained in scripture. I believe that scripture, oral tradition, and the church's magisterium all support each other in putting forth God's instructions. I know we differ on that. So I'll leave you with one last verse.

In 1 Thes 2:13, Paul writes, "And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers." (Underline emphasis mine, of course.) As 1 Thes is viewed by many as the first of Paul's letters and perhaps the oldest book in the NT, I understand Paul to mean that his orally transmitted teaching, including that given before he wrote his first letter, is the word of God. Please understand that I don't include this verse to be argumentative, but to show that Catholics do have scriptural basis to accept oral tradition as the word of God.

Blessings on this Independence Day to you too! And thanks for the civil dialogue :)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

verga,
First, I am really happy for you to believe whatever you wish. I am not trying to argue to change your mind.

Having said that, I will discuss the passage with you.

... God knows everything, being omniscient. All Christians believe this. God hears and knows every prayer of every person and has no personal need for an angel or elder to reveal the prayer to Him.
... There is nothing in the passage to indicate anyone prayed to the 24 elders.
... We do not even know their specific identities.
... The incense is the prayers of the saints - prayers of Christians. As it turns out, departed Christians who were martyred. For that, you must read further - from Rev. 5:8 to Rev. 8:3-4.
... Because of this, we do not know that this ever happens to any specific prayers before or after this occasion.
... Nothing in the passage says or indicates people should pray to any departed Christian who is now in heaven nor that any departed Christian can hear them.
... The angels are presenting prayers as incense. Nothing is said about them interceding for Christians on earth.
... Nothing is said that indicates where they got the incense.
... Do not miss that these “prayers” are from those who are dead - martyred -

vs. 6:10 and following “And when the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their witness.”

“They called loudly to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge the people who belong to this world for what they have done to us? When will you avenge our blood against these people?” Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of the servants of Jesus had been martyred.

The angels offer the incense to God in Rev. 8:3-4. When the smoke of the prayers for justice reach God’s nostrils, He begins to carry out judgement on the earth. This occurs in the future during the end times, when God pours out His judgement on the earth and on those that do not love Him. God answers their prayers for justice in the following 7 Trumpet Judgements upon the earth.

For completeness, I should also note that angels _were_ described as the bearer of prayers to God in inter-biblical Jewish literature (cf. Tobid 12:15; III Baruch 11)... though never in the Hebrew scriptures. The idea of incense representing prayers is used several times in Scripture (cf. 8:3–4; Ps. 141:2; Luke 1:10). Even in these examples, there is no command to pray to anyone but God - not departed saints, nor angels.

... Even if you were to separate this passage from its context by saying that the prayers in Rev. 5:8 are different than the prayers of the martyred saints that are offered to God in Rev. 8:3-4, you will be left with prayers in 5:8 that are never offered to God.
... You also are left with no explanation for how the angels got the prayers, if it was a one time event, or what they did with them, and without anything in scripture that tells us to pray to angels or says angels can hear us.

=> What we can learn is that the prayers of the saints are precious to God, filling golden bowls as fragrant incense before Him.

I’ll close on that bright note, again saying, I do not intend to change your view. It is enough to know you find grace, comfort and strength in Christ.

Blessings to you.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“No wonder it makes no sense to you that I would ask someone in heaven to offer up a prayer on my behalf. I believe that those in heaven have the veil lifted, can see more clearly, and can approach God in ways that I cannot do here on earth.”

Since Scripture never says they can hear you, yes, it makes no sense, other than you want to believe it.

In 1 Thes 2:13, Paul writes, “And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.”

Paul preached the Gospel message to the Thessalonians and they received it for what it was - the Word of God. It then bore fruit in their lives, confirming that they indeed received it and it was true. This is not a blanket statement for oral tradition.

blessings to you.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“And thanks for the civil dialogue :) “

Back at you. It is nice to talk without the assumption of hostility.

[daniel1212]

That is a good observation on your part, and yes, Jesus is God based upon the substantial weight of Scriptural evidence, being ontologically the Son of God. But the issue is that of the careful use of language in ascribing titles in Scripture to God and man, with the objections to ascriptions to Mary including some which may be technically allowed, but are objectionable (as the link explained) as being unnecessary and inferring more than is written (1Cor. 4:6) as part of an exaltation of Mary which does just that.

Like as Ratzinger says “Co-redemptrix” departs “too great an extent from the language of Scripture and the Fathers” and gives rise to misunderstandings, so my objection here is that while “mother of God” may be technically allowed in the sense that she was the vessel through whom the body God had prepared (Heb. 10:5) came, and that she cared for the incarnated God to whom she owed her own existence, yet she is never actually called that, let alone that being a title, and it comes too close to inferring an ontological oneness with God.

As for Mary being called the “mother of my Lord,” whether Elisabeth was recognizing His Deity, or referring to Him in the Jewish Messianic sense as a ruler/deliverer from God, yet this is not needed for “mother of God” to be allowed in the aforementioned restricted sense. But again, the objection is to its warrant as part of a hyper exaltation of Mary not seen in Scripture.

In addition, even the distinguishing use of “Lord” and “God” attests to the careful use of titles, as without negating His Deity, the Holy Spirit typically makes a positional/ functional distinction between God and the Lord Jesus. For the “Lord” aspect mainly describes the Divine Christ's role as the administrator and judge of all, for while He is Divine, and one with the Father as being God, yet “God has made that same Jesus...both Lord and Christ,” reigning over all until He has put all enemies under his feet, and then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” (Acts 2:34-36; 1Cor. 15:25,28)

And as it is also technically true that Jesus was the son of David, that would make his wife and by extension Mary's mother, etc. one the grandmothers of God. But such formal titles are too prone to be misleading and are unnecessary, unless your intent is to exalt a person with as much attention and supererogatory of praise as possible, based upon extrapolations of some text (much in distinction to Paul, whose sufferings and labor of love the Holy Spirit abundant documents). And i am sure the humble and holy Mary of Scripture would refuse such inordinate devotion, versus the degree of attention and honor Scripture plainly gives her, and affirm, "I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away. " (Job 32:22)

[verga]

That is a good observation on your part, and yes, Jesus is God based upon the substantial weight of Scriptural evidence, being ontologically the Son of God. But the issue is that of the careful use of language in ascribing titles in Scripture to God and man, with the objections to ascriptions to Mary including some which may be technically allowed, but are objectionable (as the link explained) as being unnecessary and inferring more than is written (1Cor. 4:6) as part of an exaltation of Mary which does just that.

The problem with you understanding is that scripture itself disagrees with you. Thomas in addressing Jesus in the upper room: Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Jesus was recognized as God just as John the Baptist recognized him in utero and why Elizabeth was able to address Mary as the Mother of God. all this was accomplished through the Holy Spirit.

[RaisingCain]

Perfect Union’s point is worth expanding upon. Note the next scripture:

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

We are made KINGS, overcomers of the world and greatly preferred by God, and PRIESTS, a Holy Order, washed in His blood (and not of ourselves), with direct access to God’s throne. There is, therefore, no need for any extra mediator between us and Christ. Christ is the sole mediator between us and God. We are the Saints, and we are equal to any Saint in heaven, with all the same rights and privileges.