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To: aMorePerfectUnion
This is an assumption from silence- since the text doesn’t say that. Arguments from silence are never used as a basis of doctrine - or any assumption could become a doctrine.

Seriously, that is your position. Let's look at the text in context:

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense,

Golden bowls full of incense being held NOT by God but by the elders who are presenting them TO God. Clearly God does not have them since there would be no need to give them to God.

Now let's see what could those bowls possibly contain? Hmmmm let's see what could they possibly be?

which are the prayers of the saints.

Oh that's right they are the prayers of the faithful (saints). So to recap the 24 elders are presenting prayers to God from the faithful. They are acting as wait for it......mediators.

93 posted on 07/04/2012 5:02:50 PM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: verga

verga,
First, I am really happy for you to believe whatever you wish. I am not trying to argue to change your mind.

Having said that, I will discuss the passage with you.

... God knows everything, being omniscient. All Christians believe this. God hears and knows every prayer of every person and has no personal need for an angel or elder to reveal the prayer to Him.
... There is nothing in the passage to indicate anyone prayed to the 24 elders.
... We do not even know their specific identities.
... The incense is the prayers of the saints - prayers of Christians. As it turns out, departed Christians who were martyred. For that, you must read further - from Rev. 5:8 to Rev. 8:3-4.
... Because of this, we do not know that this ever happens to any specific prayers before or after this occasion.
... Nothing in the passage says or indicates people should pray to any departed Christian who is now in heaven nor that any departed Christian can hear them.
... The angels are presenting prayers as incense. Nothing is said about them interceding for Christians on earth.
... Nothing is said that indicates where they got the incense.
... Do not miss that these “prayers” are from those who are dead - martyred -

vs. 6:10 and following “And when the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their witness.”

“They called loudly to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge the people who belong to this world for what they have done to us? When will you avenge our blood against these people?” Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of the servants of Jesus had been martyred.

The angels offer the incense to God in Rev. 8:3-4. When the smoke of the prayers for justice reach God’s nostrils, He begins to carry out judgement on the earth. This occurs in the future during the end times, when God pours out His judgement on the earth and on those that do not love Him. God answers their prayers for justice in the following 7 Trumpet Judgements upon the earth.

For completeness, I should also note that angels _were_ described as the bearer of prayers to God in inter-biblical Jewish literature (cf. Tobid 12:15; III Baruch 11)... though never in the Hebrew scriptures. The idea of incense representing prayers is used several times in Scripture (cf. 8:3–4; Ps. 141:2; Luke 1:10). Even in these examples, there is no command to pray to anyone but God - not departed saints, nor angels.

... Even if you were to separate this passage from its context by saying that the prayers in Rev. 5:8 are different than the prayers of the martyred saints that are offered to God in Rev. 8:3-4, you will be left with prayers in 5:8 that are never offered to God.
... You also are left with no explanation for how the angels got the prayers, if it was a one time event, or what they did with them, and without anything in scripture that tells us to pray to angels or says angels can hear us.

=> What we can learn is that the prayers of the saints are precious to God, filling golden bowls as fragrant incense before Him.

I’ll close on that bright note, again saying, I do not intend to change your view. It is enough to know you find grace, comfort and strength in Christ.

Blessings to you.


95 posted on 07/04/2012 6:21:45 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: verga

Perfect Union’s point is worth expanding upon. Note the next scripture:

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

We are made KINGS, overcomers of the world and greatly preferred by God, and PRIESTS, a Holy Order, washed in His blood (and not of ourselves), with direct access to God’s throne. There is, therefore, no need for any extra mediator between us and Christ. Christ is the sole mediator between us and God. We are the Saints, and we are equal to any Saint in heaven, with all the same rights and privileges.


100 posted on 07/04/2012 11:03:53 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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