Following-Truth:5 Facts That Must Be Ignored BeforeAccusing CatholicsOf “Mary Worship”[Cath & Open]

Following the Truth.com ^ | Jun 19th, 2012 | Gary Zimak

[Salvation]

5 Facts That Must Be Ignored Before Accusing Catholics Of “Mary Worship”!

Jun 19th, 2012

by Gary Zimak.

I love the Blessed Mother! There…I said it and I’m glad I did! As a Catholic, I’m so blessed to be a member of the Church that truly honors and respects the Mother of my Lord and Savior. I must admit that, even though I’m a cradle Catholic, I didn’t always feel this way. In fact, for most of my life I didn’t understand Mary’s role or care about her too much. What a mistake! Now, after several recent accusations of “Mary worship” on my Facebook page, it’s time to stand up for my “Mom”. And, even though I love her and want to defend her honor, I have no intention of getting nasty. Rather, I’d prefer to present 5 facts about Mary. Before you accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, I ask you to take a long hard look at these facts. They have a way of poking holes in the theory that we place too much emphasis on Mary. If you still want to accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, then I suggest you ignore these facts!

1. God Sent The Savior Through Mary – I list this one first because it’s really tough to downplay Mary’s importance while acknowledging that the long awaiting Messiah came to earth by being born of a woman…and that woman was Mary. Out of all the ways that Jesus could have come to earth, why was Mary chosen? If Mary was important to God, shouldn’t she mean something to us?

2. Jesus Performed His First Miracle At Mary’s Request - This is another good one. Oh I know, Jesus didn’t need Mary to turn the water into wine at Cana. She just happened to be there. OK, why then did St. John list Mary FIRST in his list of wedding guests?

On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; Jesus also was invited to the marriage with His disciples. (John 2:1-2)

If Mary is not important in this saga, why is she listed BEFORE the apostles and BEFORE Jesus? St. John the Evangelist was not known for inserting extraneous details. Mary is listed first because John wants to call the readers’ attention to her presence at the wedding.

But what about “the rebuke”? You know, the argument that Jesus was telling Mary to “butt out” when He stated:

“O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” (John 2:4)

Jesus was a devout Jew and an obedient follower of the Ten Commandments. Why would He publicly dishonor His mother in violation of the Fourth Commandment? Secondly, if this was such a “put down” by Jesus, why did He go ahead and perform the miracle of changing water into wine? Wouldn’t that have been the end of the request. Of course it would, unless He wasn’t putting Mary down. When His mother interceded on behalf of the couple, Our Lord decided that His time had now come. Don’t you think Jesus is trying to tell us something? Isn’t is probable that Jesus waited until Mary’s request, in order to show us her intercessory power? Doesn’t that explain why St. John listed her first among the guests?

3. Jesus Gave Mary To John From The Cross – As He suffered and died on the Cross, Jesus made a very profound statement:

When Jesus saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing near, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. (John 19:26-27)

Why, while struggling to speak as He hung on the Cross, would Jesus have spoken these words if they didn’t mean anything? Could He have been making small talk? Obviously, there was a reason that Our Lord did what He did. The Church has always believed that John represented each member of the Church and that, from that moment on, Mary became our spiritual mother. Scripture tells us that, on that day John accepted Jesus’ gift and “took her to his own home” (John 19:27). Shouldn’t we do the same?

4. Jesus’ First Graces Were Given Through Mary – This is a fact that frequently gets overlooked by those who wish to downplay Mary’s importance…and it comes straight from the Bible! After accepting God’s offer to become the Mother of the Savior, Mary traveled “in haste” to visit her relative, Elizabeth.

And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the child leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1:41)

According to this Bible passage, before Jesus was even born, Mary’s voice was used to deliver the graces to Elizabeth. Why? Because she’s not important? Isn’t there some other way, these graces could have been dispensed?

Not convinced? Listen to what Elizabeth had to say (also directly from the Bible)…

“For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy.” (Luke 1:44)

It’s pretty hard to deny the importance of Mary’s presence and voice in dispensing these graces to Elizabeth. Did the graces originate from Mary? No, they obviously came from Jesus. However, He chose to have Mary make the journey and use her voice to deliver them. Why? Because He wants us to realize that she is important!

5. Jesus Christ Is The Sole Mediator Between God And Man - Now, this doesn’t make sense. How does this help to support the Catholic position? This is why we Catholics “have it all wrong”, isn’t it? Sorry if I’m bursting anyone’s bubble, but Catholics absolutely believe that Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) clearly states this belief:

Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners. (CCC 2634)

This Catholic teaching is supported by the following Bible passage:

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all. (1 Timothy 2:5-6)

Although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, that doesn’t preclude others (including Mary) from being involved in a subordinate mediation, or intercession. Saint Paul, who made the above statement, is obviously aware of that fact since he several times urges his readers to pray for each other (Romans 1:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:25, 1 Timothy 2:1). The Catechism refers to this type of intercession as being a “participation in the intercession of Christ” (CCC 2635) and is put into practice each time we pray for one another. Asking Mary to intercede for us in no way takes away from Jesus’ role as mediator between God and men.

While I’m not naive enough to think that listing these 5 facts will render me immune from further accusations of “Mary worship”, I do think that they will have an effect if looked at with an open mind. Sacred Scripture does not contain a lot of words about Mary, but what’s there is powerful. Theologians have spent 2,000 years studying her Biblical appearances and will continue to do so. We can learn much by studying Mary’s role as documented in the pages of the Bible. If anyone wants to accuse me of being a “Mary worshiper”, I ask you to first look at these 5 facts. If you still want to point a finger, you’ll need to ignore these factual statements…

because accepting them will seriously undermine your credibility!

[verga]

Let me give you a hint: ... The 24 elders whom you are praying to are not there yet, because Revelation 5 has not happened yet! And your proof is whqat exactly? Seriously you have made this bold proclamation, yet have given no evidence. Given that you beleive in SS my interpretation is at least as valid as yours.

Last chance on the elder question ... my patience is up.

I would hope that this means you will drop this but I seriiously doubt it.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“When you look at the entire sentce it is not saying that Jesus is the only mediator, it is actually saying that Jesus was the single mediator that died for our sins. There can be otehr mediators, but none of them was able to die for our sins.”

Jesus Christ indeed is the mediator of the New Covenant.

... If you are going to make the argument that others are mediators, please show where the Greek word for mediator is used of another Christian, of of an angel.
... I know of nowhere in the Scriptures that says Mary or a departed believer, or an angel prays for us.

... I think it is also worth your inquiry to find a direct command to Christians that they should pray to anther Christian or angel. We do have the example in It’s a Wonderful Life, but of course, that isn’t Scripture.

... It is also worth noting here that CHRIST Himself continues to pray for us.
... It is also worth noting that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us when we don’t know what to pray.

Blessings to you.

[verga]

Everything after Revelation 4:1 is prophecy about the future... 4:1 After these things I looked, and there was a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: “Come up here so that I can show you what must happen after these things.”

There are quite a few scholars that read this as being part of the destruction of Jerusalem.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“There are quite a few scholars that read this as being part of the destruction of Jerusalem.”

Oh, sure. To do so though, you have to forget all about the fulfillment of the book of Daniel, and other prophets, you have to make it all allegory or all symbolic.

You also have to ignore everything it foretells, like a new heaven and new earth (with no sea), etc.

Best.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“There are quite a few scholars that read this as being part of the destruction of Jerusalem.”

Oh, sure. To do so though, you have to forget all about the fulfillment of the book of Daniel, and other prophets, you have to make it all allegory or all symbolic.

You also have to ignore everything it foretells, like a new heaven and new earth (with no sea), etc.

Best.

[verga]

... I think it is also worth your inquiry to find a direct command to Christians that they should pray to anther Christian or angel.

Did you miss ALL of the quotes from Paul in post #112.

[dartuser]

To whom would a wife of a Jewish priest be referring, especially in the context established by the gospel writer, when she said, "my Lord"?

The coming Messiah ...

[dartuser]

And your proof is what exactly? Seriously you have made this bold proclamation, yet have given no evidence.

It is hardly a bold proclamation. Look at the details of the text starting in Rev 4.

Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

So there are 24 thrones (first clue) and on those thrones 24 elders (second clue) are clothed in white garments (third clue) and golden crowns on their heads (forth clue).

The 24 elders are pictured sitting on thrones and what does a throne symbolize? Authority to reign. When the king sits on his throne that is an outward symbol of his reign. There are several places where Christ has disclosed to the NT writers that Christians will rule and reign with Christ. The immediate context of Revelation gives a good one ...

Rev 2:26-27 ... In His letter to the church of Thyatira He says ...

26 He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father;

Christ mentions that as a reward for overcoming ... He will give to some the authority to rule with Him ... this also gives credibility to the 24 elders being humans as the Bible does not ever depict angels ruling or sitting on thrones.

First clue covered ... second clue ... they are called elders. The greek term is presbuteroi, which is never used to refer to angels, but always to men. It is used to speak of older men in general but specifically of rulers (both of Israel in the OT and church leaders in the NT).

Third clue, white garments are representative of believers clothing. In the immediate context, Christ urges those in Sardis to "buy from Me . . . white garments so that you may clothe yourself." Rev 3:18. Also see Rev. 3:4 that depicts worthy believers as walking with Him in white garments.

Forth clue ... the golden crowns upon their heads. Crowns are depicted in the NT as rewards for faithful service. Paul mentions about 7 different crowns presented to believers at the judgment seat of Christ. One example is 2 Tim 2:8

8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

When will Paul get this crown ... on judgment day when he stands before Jesus Christ, as we all will do. Has the judgment seat of Christ happened yet? No ... that will happen in the future after He comes again.

Now do you see why the events in Rev 4-5 are still future? The 24 elders are human believers in Jesus Christ who have been redeemed, who are clothed in white garments, and who have already received their rewards, and who are already ruling and reigning with Him.

Therefore this part of the vision that John had (Rev 4-5) depicts events that are still future, since the judgment seat of Christ has not happened yet for the elders to receive their rewards.

Given that you beleive in SS my interpretation is at least as valid as yours.

Except we are trying to determine truth, and both our interpretations cannot be valid if we are seeking the truth.

I would hope that this means you will drop this but I seriously doubt it.

Since you have taken three different opportunities to ignore my question, I will drop it ...

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“... I think it is also worth your inquiry to find a direct command to Christians that they should pray to anther Christian or angel.

“Did you miss ALL of the quotes from Paul in post #112.

No. I read them all. We should invite other believers to pray for us. That does not make them “mediators” as the Bible uses the word. It makes them friends who come alongside.

Before you tell me that praying to departed saints is equal to asking a believer you know to pray for you, please note that the earth-bound believer can hear you, assuredly. The Scriptures never command or teach us to pray to a departed saint - nor do they indicate that the blessed departed saint can hear us.

Now, believe whatever you will. I’ve had a discussion to point out that the belief of praying to saints is without Biblical foundation and is made up out of whole cloth.

You can go boldly into the presence of God yourself and ask anything according to His will and He hears you and answers. You have Jesus Christ interceding for you. The Holy Spirit is praying for you, even when you don’t know how or what to pray.

[FatherofFive]

Because it is symbolism, types, part of the vision describing the heavenly court, where the prayers of the saints are continually given importance and power before the throne of God. Incense, in Psalms, is made to symbolize prayer that continually wafts before the Lord.

I don't think you understand symbolism here. Symbolism represents an underlying reality. The prayers are not wafting - they are being carried. The symbol holding the prayers could have been an urn, a chalice, or plate. Whatever the symbol, the action of the prayers being carried by the elders is the reality.

Christ was the vine, we are the branches. The reality is that we cannot (as branches) live without the vine. The symbol could have been a tree. Christ is the door (The symbol could have been a gate)- but we can’t get there without Christ opening the entrance.

The symbolic image was the vessel, not that fact and reality that the elders were taking the prayers to God.

[Heart-Rest]

" The fallacious reasoning is in concluding that LEADERS of an organization do NOT represent that group. "

That is not the point.    The point is, should an entire group be found responsible and guilty for the sins of a very tiny minority of that group?    In other words, do you find the group Judas Iscariot was part of (including Peter, James, John, and all the other apostles, as well as Jesus Christ Himself), responsible for and guilty of the sins committed by Judas Iscariot, just because they were all part of his group?

(None of us know for sure what would have happened to Judas if he had repented, but we do know what later happened to Saul/Paul who was a major participant in a killing rampage against the Church, and Jesus asked him why he was persecuting Jesus.    (See Acts Chapters 7, 8, and 9.)   Paul later became an apostle himself.)

(By the way, many of the Bishops shown at that web site that James Mott provided have long since been removed from their responsibilities, including Egan and Weakland.    Do you believe that when someone is first accused of something they should be permanently fired as guilty without any investigation or due process to determine the veracity of the charges against them?)

Also, in reference to your post number "43", it sounds like you feel that Mary is not really special.

So, God picked only this one beautiful person - Mary - to be overshadowed by God the Holy Spirit and conceive in her womb Jesus Christ - God the Son while remaining a virgin, then to give birth to him, to nurse him, and raise him, and initiate his first recorded public miracle, and watch him die, and you do not think she was special?

God did not pick you boatbums, or me, or any of the other posters here, or any of the billions and billions and billions of other people who ever existed from the beginning of the human race to the present to do all these things, only Mary.    Do you seriously not find her to be a special, uniquely chosen person by God Almighty, for a singularly unique and special purpose, or are you just putting all of us on?

[boatbums]

That is not the point. The point is, should an entire group be found responsible and guilty for the sins of a very tiny minority of that group? In other words, do you find the group Judas Iscariot was part of (including Peter, James, John, and all the other apostles, as well as Jesus Christ Himself), responsible for and guilty of the sins committed by Judas Iscariot, just because they were all part of his group?

My point was NOT that an individual within a group who does wrong makes all those within the group equally guilty. No, not at all. My point was only if that wicked person was being allowed to REMAIN in a leadership position within the group and no attempts were made BY the group to help the person come to repentance and "bring forth works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:20). Again, if Judas Iscariot had not hung himself and showed up the week after the resurrection, would the eleven have greeted him with hugs and kisses and thought it okay for Judas to remain as an Apostle? I really do not think they would have. Would Jesus have forgiven him? Sure, but wouldn't he have had to first confess to doing a grave wrong and genuinely determined to NOT repeat the same thing? The Apostles would have been rightfully blamed had they accepted an unrepentant Judas back into the group and that was really my only point.

Also, in reference to your post number "43", it sounds like you feel that Mary is not really special. So, God picked only this one beautiful person - Mary - to be overshadowed by God the Holy Spirit and conceive in her womb Jesus Christ - God the Son while remaining a virgin, then to give birth to him, to nurse him, and raise him, and initiate his first recorded public miracle, and watch him die, and you do not think she was special? God did not pick you boatbums, or me, or any of the other posters here, or any of the billions and billions and billions of other people who ever existed from the beginning of the human race to the present to do all these things, only Mary. Do you seriously not find her to be a special, uniquely chosen person by God Almighty, for a singularly unique and special purpose, or are you just putting all of us on?

It really depends upon your definition of "special". Do I believe Mary was a virgin who led a virtuous life? Yes. Do I believe Mary continued to exhibit strong faith throughout her life as the mother of our Savior? Absolutely! God would not have chosen a woman who could not have dealt with the trials and great responsibilities placed upon her. She was special in that way, of course. But was Mary a human being who was born with a sin nature like ALL mankind is apart from Jesus? I don't think there is anywhere in Scripture that says she was was immune from that. In fact, Scripture says ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). No exception was made other than Jesus who was sinless because he was God in the flesh. So Mary was set apart so that God would fulfill his promise to come into the world as a man. And Mary was also given a choice, was she not? She COULD have refused, but she didn't because God knows all things before they even happen. I'm sorry if you have taken my words to in any way disparage Mary, because I certainly do not. What I disparage is the myth, hype, legend and unscriptural glorification of Mary that, in some places, puts her above the Lord Jesus. I reject the many dogmas that have been created that encourage such deification of Mary and that place the grace of God under her authority to divvy out. I reject any doctrines that do not have Scriptural warrant, but this does not mean I don't think Mary is special. She is, but in the way that God makes all those special who he chooses to accomplish his will and who willingly, out of love and dedication to Him do as he commands them to. We are ALL blessed when God's will is done.

[Chaguito]

I admire Mary. Mary will called blessed by all generations. Just as Job is called blessed (James 5:11). Just as all who are poor in spirit, thirsting after righteousness, etc, are called blessed (Matt 5). All are described by the same word that Mary uses of herself in the Magnificat in Luke 1:58.

Mary chose the opprobrium of others rather than to say “no” to God’s Spirit. She is a model for us.

Just as Job is a model for us.