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To: dartuser
Let me give you a hint: ... The 24 elders whom you are praying to are not there yet, because Revelation 5 has not happened yet! And your proof is whqat exactly? Seriously you have made this bold proclamation, yet have given no evidence. Given that you beleive in SS my interpretation is at least as valid as yours.

Last chance on the elder question ... my patience is up.

I would hope that this means you will drop this but I seriiously doubt it.

121 posted on 07/05/2012 5:20:03 PM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: verga
And your proof is what exactly? Seriously you have made this bold proclamation, yet have given no evidence.

It is hardly a bold proclamation. Look at the details of the text starting in Rev 4.

Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

So there are 24 thrones (first clue) and on those thrones 24 elders (second clue) are clothed in white garments (third clue) and golden crowns on their heads (forth clue).

The 24 elders are pictured sitting on thrones and what does a throne symbolize? Authority to reign. When the king sits on his throne that is an outward symbol of his reign. There are several places where Christ has disclosed to the NT writers that Christians will rule and reign with Christ. The immediate context of Revelation gives a good one ...

Rev 2:26-27 ... In His letter to the church of Thyatira He says ...

26 He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father;

Christ mentions that as a reward for overcoming ... He will give to some the authority to rule with Him ... this also gives credibility to the 24 elders being humans as the Bible does not ever depict angels ruling or sitting on thrones.

First clue covered ... second clue ... they are called elders. The greek term is presbuteroi, which is never used to refer to angels, but always to men. It is used to speak of older men in general but specifically of rulers (both of Israel in the OT and church leaders in the NT).

Third clue, white garments are representative of believers clothing. In the immediate context, Christ urges those in Sardis to "buy from Me . . . white garments so that you may clothe yourself." Rev 3:18. Also see Rev. 3:4 that depicts worthy believers as walking with Him in white garments.

Forth clue ... the golden crowns upon their heads. Crowns are depicted in the NT as rewards for faithful service. Paul mentions about 7 different crowns presented to believers at the judgment seat of Christ. One example is 2 Tim 2:8

8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

When will Paul get this crown ... on judgment day when he stands before Jesus Christ, as we all will do. Has the judgment seat of Christ happened yet? No ... that will happen in the future after He comes again.

Now do you see why the events in Rev 4-5 are still future? The 24 elders are human believers in Jesus Christ who have been redeemed, who are clothed in white garments, and who have already received their rewards, and who are already ruling and reigning with Him.

Therefore this part of the vision that John had (Rev 4-5) depicts events that are still future, since the judgment seat of Christ has not happened yet for the elders to receive their rewards.

Given that you beleive in SS my interpretation is at least as valid as yours.

Except we are trying to determine truth, and both our interpretations cannot be valid if we are seeking the truth.

I would hope that this means you will drop this but I seriously doubt it.

Since you have taken three different opportunities to ignore my question, I will drop it ...

128 posted on 07/06/2012 6:10:51 AM PDT by dartuser ("If you are ... what you were ... then you're not.")
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