Posted on 07/02/2012 6:30:14 AM PDT by Cronos
I want to thank Archbishop William E. Lori for reminding me once again why I'm an ex-Catholic ("Fight for freedom," June 27). With the so-called "Fortnight for Freedom," the church leadership is deliberately and cynically using a mixture of patriotism and religion in a blatant and manipulative attempt to influence the outcome of the upcoming elections.
I can't seem to recall any recent news about Catholic churches being bombed in the United States or attempts to bar American Catholics from attending mass. I do know that the Catholic Church has been using its "religious freedom" for decades to aid and abet child abusers, to recently attack nuns in the United States who are at the forefront of what used to be one of the church's primary missions to aid and comfort the poor and needy, and that the American church has over the past few decades formed an alliance with some of the most strident and politically active right-wing religious groups in the U.S. Archbishop Lori even received an award in May from a coalition of some of those groups.
I am proud to be an American, and I am a strong supporter of the Bill of Rights. I support freedom of religion, and I support freedom from religion. And, at this moment in time, I am also very proud and happy to be an ex-Catholic.
Sandy Covahey, Baltimore
(Excerpt) Read more at baltimoresun.com ...
There is more than one Catholic on FR that needs to read your post.
I can’t tell you the amount of flack I’ve received from Catholics on what I’ve related as on the ground, grassroots Catholicism that I’ve seen, heard, and experienced and I’ve all but been outright called a liar about it.
Courtesy ping to others in the know.
goodbye Sandy....
And thanks for letting me know as i do not want anyone on it who does not want to be so. You were part of a second list which does not get pinged as much, and i think it was a result of your involvement in a previous thread. Sorry.
FWIW, WNY politics has been notoriously corrupt for as long as I can remember, which is far longer than I wish I could remember.
I think the problem is more of superficial Catholicism than anything else. It is one thing to be discouraged by local conditions and the actions of some individuals within the Church, and it is all together something different to ignore the history, traditions and comprehensive beauty of the real doctrines of the Church and turn your back and walk away from it. Those who love their Church are not so quick to give up on it.
I'll ask you this? What do the Apostles, St. Paul, St. Clement of Rome, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Origen of Alexandria, St. Athanasius of Alexandria, St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Alexandria, and St. Augustine of Hippo all have in common? The answer is they are all dead. They all endured and suffered great challenges and trials in service to the Gospel and we have all benefited greatly from it.
But we are alive and it is now up to us to carry that message and continue to preserve and spread the Greatest Story Ever Told. Those of us true to those same Gosples must be willing to do far more than suffer a few liberal busy bodies, wayward clergy members, unqualified DREs (Directors of Religious Education) and even a completely corrupted parish or diocese in service to that cause. The Holy Spirit calls us all to missions, perhaps fixing your local Church was yours. Its never too late.
Peace be with you.
To speak the Truth is to speak in love. How are you going to match up Revelation 14:13 with Martin Luther’s Sola Fide?
You can’t and no one else has replied. How can you base
your salvation on heresies? Explain someone, Make Revelation 14:13 fit Sola Fide.
A Calvinist Presbyterian minister recognized the Truth.
Everyone here should too.
~ ~ ~
King James Version (KJV)
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
“For years, as a Calvinist preacher, I recited this verse in every funeral graveside service. I believed and taught Sola Fide and discounting any place for works in the process of our salvation. But then, after my last funeral service as a minister, a family member of the deceased cornered me. He asked, with a tremble in his voice, “What did you mean that Bill’s deeds follow him?” I don’t remember my response, but this was the first time I became aware of what I had been saying. This began a long study on what the New Testament and then the Early Church Fathers taught about the mysterious but necessary synergistic connection between our faith and our works.”
I can sympathize with you here. You dare to state what Lumen Gentium and the CCC states , though it is variously interpreted, and thus differ with a somewhat different type of Catholic who seems to prefer to shoot first and ask questions later, and suddenly (following his amazing conclusions) you are “Sola Fide” who started an anti-Catholic thread and “need to change” and “come home,” and (from another poster) you are not qualified to discuss the Church as an ex-Catholic!
You wouldn’t find it so difficult if you didn’t reject most of God’s Revelation so the very means to God’s grace.
“you’re not going to get any converts with that tone. Talk of the positives of God’s complete revelation in the sacraments and in the Divine Liturgy if you want people to change. Otherwise its just mouthing off.”
~ ~ ~
This is so old, Protestants have the same objections, you
can’t show them. They’re stuck, it will take God in the
2nd Pentecost and it is soon, maybe next year.
Think what you said “God’s complete revelation.”
OP, I wasn’t “mouthing off”, don’t be rude because you left the faith and can’t give a convincing reason why or persuade others to leave the faith. Come home, you can.
If you knew the faith, you wouldn’t have left.
Oh daniel, reply to Revelation 14:13. Sola Fide is
a lie. No one here has answered.
Why did the man who came up with Sola Fide try to throw out the book of James? It must of been James 2:24. Defend “Faith Alone” using those two verses. Confirm “faith alone” using Revelation 14:13. Be brave brother, be
the first.
Ex-Catholics are bitter about their choice, more so than Protestants. It’s pride and both won’t look at history, only to object to it.
Are these posts of yours REALLY directed to cronos?
Are you aware that you are talking to a practicing Catholic?
Are you also aware that he is NOT the author of the thread?
I tried to persuade my brother to have a very quiet Mass with just him, my other brother, me, and our spouses with a quiet interment at the cemetery, and then invite the extended family for a luncheon and a reunion.
I know that the Mass would have been very comforting for my Catholic brother and he seemed to need this ceremony, but I did not think it was appropriate or respectful to subject the believing and practicing Catholics among the extended family and friends to a religious spectacle celebrating the life of an **avowed** , unrepentant, and open atheist, and an unrepentant and openly non-practicing Catholic.
Honestly,...I don't think this is what my parents would have wanted. Given that extended family and friends knew my parents standing with the Catholic Church, I believe they attended only to be polite to my brother.
Metmom, if you are getting flcak, I think the problem may be one of perception. When you see your family, you see “practicing Catholics” who inexplicably vote for a clearly Socialist, pro-abortion liberal even though they claim to follow what they believe to be the “Catholic position” on things. I’m sure this is frustrating for you, as it is for me.
As a Catholic myself, when I hear about your family, I “see” Catholics who have been led astray by the very men who were assigned to guide them, and whose souls I fear are in danger because of it. The bishops in charge of these dioceses have much to answer for, IMO.
In all honesty, and even though I regularly rail about the blindness of Catholics who simply do not see (or who do not wish to see) the illogic in their voting habits, I actually pity them. If only they heard the REAL Catholic positions on things, they might think differently, because there is no question that it is Conservatism and not Liberalism that is in line with AUTHENTIC Catholic teaching. The bishops need to hammer home the danger of voting for pro-abortion candidates EVERY WEEK if necessary, and they need to embrace the principle of subsidiarity to handle other domestic problems.
Now if we could get those pesky liberal bishops to preach on THAT instead of the “social justice” claptrap...well, we might just see a change in voting patterns.
Try to take heart! There is a small but growing number of traditional Catholics who are on fire both spiritually and politically, and I assure you, they are as Conservative as all get-out.
Regards,
No, works for salvation is the lie. We are saved by the grace of God THROUGH faith and NOT of works. You have been answered many times but no one can make you understand this truth. As to Revelation 14:13 saying our works are what saves us is purely and simply a FALSE reading of scripture. If these "prophets" are telling you this, they are preaching a false gospel and we know in the end-times there WILL be such false prophets. You would do well to shun them and not try to help spread their false gospel. You should notice that in verse 13 it says:
"and their works do follow them"
They do not go before them, to prepare heaven and happiness for them; nor do they take them along with them, and use them as pleas for their admission into the heavenly glory; but they will follow them, and will be found to praise, and honour, and glory, and will be taken notice of by Christ, and graciously rewarded by him, at his appearing and kingdom. (http://gill.biblecommenter.com/revelation/14.htm)
Scripture does not contradict itself because it ALL comes from the Holy Spirit, it is God-breathed. You are reading INTO the verse something it does not say. Now you can stop saying "no one here has answered" you.
“Are you aware that you are talking to a practicing Catholic?
Are you also aware that he is NOT the author of the thread?”
~ ~ ~
Thanks metmom, sorry Cronos, I thought you were the anti-Catholic.
Let us keep talking about the faith. the anti-Catholic regulars at FR need our help. Daniel is trying to defend “faith alone”, following a heresy that came from a man who rejected the true faith.
Daniel, the Church never taught “Sola Fide”, your pride
sticking with a heretic. Post some of Luther’s quotes, a
holy man, no way.
Not to kibitz, but this whole automatic dismissal mechanism appears to be an institutional form of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy. It would be like saying any Baptist who unrepentantly drinks or swears or commits a sexual sin is therefore not a true Baptist, and we don’t have to account for their continued claim to be Baptist. Instead of the messiness and heartache of taking ownership of the problem, we could just ignore it.
But in the more conservative Reformed fellowships (and some others), excommunication can never be automatic because it is necessary for the good of the church to consciously and deliberately go through the Matthew 18 disciplinary process. The congregation becomes witness and party to the process, weeps over the brother or sister publically at odds with God, and comes to appreciate the profound danger of trying to keep one foot in the world and the other foot in the church.
But if that Matthew 18 process is abandoned in favor of a quieter, more painless method, and one that yields no tangible quality of punishment, then such punishment is both illusory in nature, and ineffective as a means of educating the churches, and is doomed to fail in changing caviler attitudes towards the high calling of Godly living.
Peace,
SR
“and their works do follow them”
THEY do not go before them, to prepare heaven and happiness for them; nor do they take THEM along with them, and use THEM as pleas for their admission into the heavenly glory; but they will follow them, and will be found to praise, and honour, and glory, and will be taken notice of by Christ, and graciously rewarded by him, at his appearing and kingdom. (http://gill.biblecommenter.com/revelation/14.htm)
~ ~ ~
Hi boatbums, it’s your response to Rev 14:13 not Daniel,
thanks.
Good Lord, using the reverse. Who said anything about “before”, the verse doesn’t say “before”, it says “follow”, as in the results of....
Who is “THEY” and “THEM” in the excuse to reject faith and works? Does the bible commentator mean “they” are works, we don’t take “them” to Heaven? Wrongo, we don’t get into Heaven without them, God’s grace, faith and our good works.
Protestants will not let go of “faith alone.” They know
it’s source, Luther and still believe it!
Here, once again, Our Lord explains it simply to Protestants. He’s teaching you, preparing you to accept
the faith and hoping you will let go of the heresies.
After the Great Warning, no more Protestantism or schisms.
Jesus speaks of three heresies in one paragraph.
1. faith alone
2. the altar call, accepting Jesus into your heart one time
as your personal Lord and Savior justifies you
3. prosperity gospel (most, not all non-Catholic Christians are understanding this is a lie and reject it)
April 1, 2012
message to Kevin Barrett
...But not all that call themselves by My name shall take part as My bride. Only those that overcome shall be allowed to sit with Me on My throne to rule the nations with a rod of iron.
Oh hear Me, My people. Why do you listen to the hirelings and false teachers and prophets? Did I not say in My word that not all that say to me ‘Lord’ ‘Lord’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, save those that do the will of the Father who is in heaven? Then why do you still go about doing your own will and tell yourselves that you are My bride? My people, you have been lied to by the enemy of your soul. Seek Me in these things. Surely I will reveal My truth to you. I love you, My dear children, and it is My desire that each of you share My throne with Me. But unfortunately only a remnant shall overcome. For too many have listened to the lies told by the false shepherds and prophets. They speak of how you each are already cleansed and adorned in righteousness simply by your belief on My name. These are all lies, My people. For does not My word say that he who DOES righteousness is righteous? Yes, My people, you are made righteous by your faith in Me, but it is fulfilled by your obedience to My voice. It IS NOT imputed to you by a one-time confession of My name. Oh, My people, you have been lied to. Read My word for yourselves.
Why listen to those that fatten themselves by fleecing My sheep? I have not sent many of the shepherds that are out there. They have sent themselves for their own glory and their own profit. Oh, My people, did I not say in My word to judge them by their fruit? Then where is the fruit, My people? Oh, but those that have itching ears care not about the fruit. They want to be told all is well and that they SHALL PROSPER if they simply believe on My name and My promises. Lies, lies, lies, I tell you.
http://www.hearhisheart.wordpress.com/
Okay, it was a paragraph and a half in the message to
Kevin Barrett. I divided it up for easier reading.
Even easier, Jesus tells you “faith alone” is a lie in
two sentences. “DOES” is a “work” an action.
My dear children, and it is My desire that each of you share My throne with Me. But unfortunately only a remnant shall overcome. For too many have listened to the lies told by the false shepherds and prophets. * They speak of how you each are already cleansed and adorned in righteousness simply by your belief on My name. These are all lies, My people. * For does not My word say that he who DOES righteousness is righteous?
“completely unlike anything that the previous non-c posters have said before”
Well, I have only read just a few of these c v prot threads and I find many points I have in common with my fellow ss proponents. However, as I have not been party to the older debates you cited, I can’t comment on the general knowledge of other participants concerning the patristic and creedal records of Christianity. We all come to the table as we are (cue the organist to start playing “Just As I Am”)
I make reference to the early data because 1) I believe it is edifying in itself (all truth is God’s truth), and 2) I believe it tends to support the Reformers’ contention that the medieval Roman church had drifted significantly from its primitive Christian roots.
However, none of this alters the fact that all of us are fallible, which leaves a problem of error checking, and this is really the core struggle between us. It is late, and I have to get to bed, but one point I want to respond to is this. You and I agree that God is not so weak he cannot communicate with his own, but I believe we mean different things by that. Yes, we are fallible, but God is able to overcome even that. And you and I even agree on that.
The key division between us is how does God overcome our fallibility. A scheme of Sola Ecclesia uncritically accepts that some small elite has become the one infallible voice of God to man, and everything must be filtered through their lens, even the Bible, or chaos will ensue. But any particular claimant to that infallible authority must credential their claim with an a priori claim of infallible authority to state that their credentials are good. This leads to an infinite regress, and thus defeats the purpose of error checking. As a matter of definition, the elite can never be wrong, so no matter how objectively different their claims are from primitive Christianity, there can never be serious accountability.
Whereas Sola Scriptura externalizes the God-breathed word as a universal objective reference point, gives it top priority to prevent deadlock with lesser authorities, and then trusts God to make it work. But you say, what about our fallibility? And I say, yes, we both have that problem. Because you are a fallible hearer of your own majesterium, and you might get it wrong, and you are a fallible reporter of your own majesterium, and you might pass wrong information over to me, and so your majesterium’s purported infallibility buys neither of us anything in terms of a guarantee of knowing the truth, because it still has to pass through fallible us.
But perhaps you then say I should believe you anyway, because God will overcome our fallibility as long as the source is true and God is involved. But then I say, well, the Bible is true, and God is involved, so why couldn’t that work as well as your idea? Or perhaps even better than yours, because the infinite regress is avoided and therefore mutual accountability remains in tact?
My daughter is telling me to go to bed. Sigh.
Peace,
SR
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