The Big Discovery [by David, former Presbyterian]

Journeyof ImperfectSaint.blogspot.com ^ | October 4, 2009 | David

[Salvation]

Sunday, October 4, 2009

The Big Discovery

        I made some good friends outside my church and found out that they were all Catholics.  Now, I did not know much about Catholicism at the time.  By the way, the Mass did seem somewhat mysterious to me externally.  In fact, what little I had heard from other church members was all negative.  There was a Mrs. J at my church, who had just retired from her missionary post in China.  She was such a kind and endearing soul to all.  One day she got back from visiting someone at a hospital and looked extremely sad and disturbed.  It turned out that when she got to the hospital room, she saw that a Catholic priest was already there with the patient.  Now the question was if the patient would ever get to heaven. 

 

        Nevertheless, my Catholic friends all looked quite normal and happy.  Then could the Catholic Church, the largest church in the the world, be in error?  It so happened that at that time I was also beginning to question my Protestant faith.  The fact that there were numerous different denominations around the world bothered me.  Also, as a Protestant, whether you're a minister or lay person, you are free to marry and divorce any number of times.  It's hard to see that Jesus would be happy with these two facts.  Since I am the kind of person who always likes to find the answer to any question that's important, I decided to look into Catholicism.

 

        I made up my mind not to talk to anyone about my investigation.  I was single then and had a lot of free time to myself.  The local public library housed an excellent collection of books on Catholicism, so I started borrowing books on the subject.  I read every weekend, even taking notes as I read.  The went on for over a year.  I read all those books that viciously attack the Catholic Church too, but somehow they did not affect me much because I sensed that these attacks could not have been prompted by the Holy Spirit.  The books that really helped me were the ones on early Church history.  I could see that the continuity was there and the beliefs and practices of the early Church had been preserved to this day in the Catholic Church.  The only conclusion I could come to was that the Catholic Church was indeed the church Jesus had come and established.  Like Christ himself, the Church, being his body, must be accepted (or rejected) totally, with no middle ground. 

 

        Here's some advice for those who seek the truth.  Your chances of success will greatly improve if, first, you start out with a completely open mind and secondly, go to the source(s) directly to get the facts.  Many who misunderstand the Catholic Church today have already made up their mind that the Church is wrong, thus never bothering to pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church to find out what the Church really teaches.  This is being close-minded. 

[Natural Law]

"If God is going to tell me He sees me with Christ's righteousness on me..."

Are God and Christ not one in the same? Do you not believe that Jesus is God and Lord?

Peace be with you

[bkaycee]

So your salvation is based on faith in Jesus and loving others with your good works, as well as baptism, confession, communion and mandatory sunday mass.

[Natural Law]

"So your salvation is based on..."

My Salvation certainly isn't based on anything that will fit on a bumper sticker if that is what you are implying. There are a number of key requirements and signs, but you cannot achieve it without Grace, Faith, and Love and cannot find it where good works are not evident.

Peace be with you.

[metmom]

So your salvation is based on faith in Jesus and loving others with your good works, as well as baptism, confession, communion and mandatory sunday mass.

Maybe. Don't forget that they won't find out until they get there if they're in or not.

All that could be for nothing, you know.

[boatbums]

The attempts to present St. Athanasius as a proto-Protestant or to portray his works as having never addressed the Church or Tradition by only presenting quotes carefully chosen for the Protestant ear is dishonest. Equally dishonest is the attempts to then impeach these same Saints when their further writings are shown to Paint Ptrotestantism in a bad light.

I think it is dishonest to portray early Christians as Roman Catholic. I think it is equally dishonest to disqualify anyone BUT Roman Catholics from quoting the early church fathers - especially since "they" don't belong to "Catholics" or "Protestants" but comprised the body of Christ in the first centuries of the faith before temporal power, wealth and prestige crept in and corrupted what began in truth. As to why I quoted Athanasius, here is what I prefaced the comment with:

That's a misconception of what the term sola scriptura means. The term - understood and taught by Jesus, the Apostles and the early church fathers - means that the Holy Scriptures are the authority by which truths of the faith must be measured against. Athanasius, for example said:

No matter how the doctrines of the faith are verified today, it is unquestionable that those first church leaders understood, accepted and expected that anyone who thought they had authority to teach Christian doctrine had better have solid backing from the Word of God. When Athanasius disputed with heretics of his day, from where did he base his arguments? He used Scripture to dispute the false teachers who claimed to have Scriptural warrant and he proved them wrong BY the same Scripture. At one time, Scripture WAS the authority respected by the leaders and doctors of the faith alike and no "tradition" was acceptable that did not have Holy Scripture behind them. What presents itself today as THE church, is NOT comparable to the church in Athanasius' day. Something changed. My contention is the Scriptures were placed in a subordinate role to whatever "tradition" the self-identified infallible magesterium favored and that would be something Athanasius would be at the forefront disputing even today if he were here.

[Natural Law]

"Don't forget that they won't find out until they get there if they're in or not."

I guess it depends on what Jesus meant by the end.

"He who endures to the end will be saved" - Matt. 24:13

"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" - Rom. 11:22

[Natural Law]

"No matter how the doctrines of the faith are verified today, it is unquestionable that those first church leaders understood, accepted and expected that anyone who thought they had authority to teach Christian doctrine had better have solid backing from the Word of God."

On the contrary, it is highly questionable. St. Athanasius lived and taught in a time BEFORE a Canon of Scripture and relied 100% on the Traditions of the Church to develop the Creeds and that later served as the test for Canonicity.

The term "Roman Catholic" is a fabrication of the Reformation, However Rome has always been the seat of the successors to St. Peter the first Pope and the See of the Catholic Church.

Peace be to you.

[bkaycee]

My Salvation certainly isn't based on anything that will fit on a bumper sticker if that is what you are implying. There are a number of key requirements and signs, but you cannot achieve it without Grace, Faith, and Love and cannot find it where good works are not evident.

So God has a finite number of good works or requirements you must complete?

So, if you miss the alotted requirement of works by one, your off to hell? Two more good works and you would have been ok?

[Natural Law]

"So God has a finite number of good works or requirements you must complete?"

I'm sure He does that is different for each of us, but there is no way for any of us to know how many it is.

St. Dismas was assured Salvation without having to perform any because his circumstances prevented him from doing so. Those of us not so constrained are presented with numerous opportunities, both big and small, each day to perform both Spiritual and Corporeal works of mercy. We will be judged for what is in our thoughts and in our words, what we have done and what we have failed to do.

“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left."

“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’"

“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:31-46

Peace be with you.

[Natural Law]

"There is nothing in your post that shows Athanasius leaning toward your religion...But quite the contrary..."

There is nothing in what you have posted that changes what was the collective, comprehensive message of St. Athanasius or any of the other Early Church Fathers. So you can post a couple of paragraphs gleaned from a life time of writings that support your point, big deal. If I can choose the quotes I can make Barak Obama look conservative, Bill Clinton look virtuous and Pol Pot look like a humanitarian. Its really pretty simple to do and easy to detect when seen. All that is required is an actual knowledge of the truth and the nonsense lights up like a Christmas tree.

Peace be with you.

[bkaycee]

"So God has a finite number of good works or requirements you must complete?"

I'm sure He does that is different for each of us, but there is no way for any of us to know how many it is.

You don't see a contradiction in Rom 4:3

“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

[Jvette]

****The term - understood and taught by Jesus, the Apostles and the early church fathers - means that the Holy Scriptures are the authority by which truths of the faith must be measured against. Athanasius, for example said:****

Where does Jesus ever say specifically anything about Sola Scriptura?

St. Athanasius, oh my, bringing out the big guns. Only thing, the silver bullet non Catholic Christians of unknown denominations think these passages contains turns out to be lead.

Such a great quote, with the relevant words conveniently highlighted. Problem is, St. Athanasius is not supporting Sola Sriptura here, he is defending a decision of the council at Nicea which refuted the belief in Arianism.
He quite clearly supports the council and says that the doctrine of the two natures of Jesus is “confirmed” in Scripture, though Scripture never explicitly says that Jesus is “True God and True Man.” Scripture never fully explains Jesus, that is why there are some who can claim He wasn’t truly human etc...

St. Athanasius when he says,
“Vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faith’s sake;”

is not speaking of the Church leaders, but the HERETICS and he is pointing out that the Bishops have already addressed the matter. Notice that he says the BISHOPS did not neglect the matter and have stated the doctrine clearly which if one correctly reads Scripture, one should have no trouble believing it.

This is why reading in context; knowing why something was written, to whom it was written, is so important, rather than reading into something what one wants so badly to see.

Did you know that St. Athanasius believed and wrote of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary? Did you know that St. Ambrose, a contemporary of St. Athanasius wrote of the sinlessness of Mary? Yet, there is nothing from Athanasius refuting Ambrose.

I understand “Sola Scriptura” very well. The Church’s teachings are confirmed in Scripture for those who...

“light upon the text of the Scriptures, by genuinely applying your mind to them, will learn from them more completely and clearly the exact detail of what we have said. For they were spoken and written by God, through men who spoke of God. But we impart of what we have learned from inspired teachers who have been conversant with them, who have also become martyrs for the deity of Christ, to your zeal for learning, in turn.”

No, St. Athanasius is not supporting Sola Scriptura, rather he is upholding exactly what the Church has claimed, that under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Bishops guide the Church with the support of the teachings handed down from the Apostles and with the support of the Holy Words of Scripture.

[Jvette]

More cut and paste. Thank you.

[Jvette]

****It is very easy for two to play at that game, are you sure you really want to go down that road?****

The low road, the one non Catholic Christians of undeclared or unknown denominations use when they have nothing else.

[Jvette]

Please tell me when the concept and the word “Trinity” was first used?

The Apostles never used it, Scripture never uses it much less tries to explain it.

No, it came at a later time.

How about the two natures of Jesus?

Is this specifically stated in Scripture and explained? You know, details and such given for the reader to understand it.

For that matter, when was the Church led to declare the Canon of Scripture? Hmmmmm.....seems to be a detail revealed at a latter time.

And, how is it, if the Church was not divinely inspired to declare the Canon of Scripture, and was therefore wrong as to the books, why is it that God left that detail unknown until Martin Luther, some 1500 years or so after Jesus and the death of the last Apostle?

Want more?

[metmom]

I don’t belong to any denomination. Denominations are irrelevant.

Any believer is part of the body of Christ.

It doesn’t matter where they attend for worship because denominations don’t save. Jesus does.

[Natural Law]

"It doesn’t matter where they attend for worship because denominations don’t save. Jesus does."

You didn't answer my earlier question. Do you not believe that Jesus is God and Lord?

Peace be with you

[Natural Law]

"You don't see a contradiction in Rom 4:3"

When presented as a bumper sticker it can provoke difficulties, but I don't base any of my theology on a single passage. There is a reason that St. John refers to the Logos, the comprehensive true belief system embodied in Jesus. A good source for a more comprehensive discussion of the subject, since you have in the past professed to be Lutheran, is the "JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION" by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church.

JOINT DECLARATION

[metmom]

You’ve been after me on that for years.

I didn’t answer it then and I’m not going to answer it now.

The only reason that that was ever asked was to judge me to determine if I met some arbitrary Catholic criteria for something and I don’t give a rip if I do, because the Catholic church is not my judge.

I don’t answer to it. I answer to God.

[boatbums]

Works, not the observance of the Old Testament Laws, but Spiritual and Corporeal Works of Mercy are but evidence of our faith and more importantly the evidence of our our love. Love is the greatest commandment. If we do not love God above all and do not love our neighbor as ourselves we will not be saved. It is love that unites us with God who is love. All you need is love.

No matter the semantics that Catholics play with "works" being obeying the Mosaic Law or Spiritual and Corporeal Works of Mercy, the Scripture is clear - we are saved NOT by righteous deeds, NOR works of the law, NOR any of our own righteousnesses BUT by the grace of God through faith. Anytime anyone starts adding what "we" must do to merit being saved - OR staying saved - it stops being the Gospel and becomes an accursed message.

It is when we have been saved that the outward evidence of saving faith is shown. But, here's a BIG clue: we can't love God above all else nor can we love our neighbor as Christ loves them - it is HUMANLY impossible. If anything we do has to be added to the sacrifice Christ made on our behalf in order to save us - IT STOPS BEING BY GRACE!

Does God want us to live holy lives? YES. Does God want us to love each other as Christ loves them? YES. But thinking either we must do these things in order to earn salvation OR that accomplishing such things in the carnal, old nature is at all possible is foolishness and will lead to condemnation NOT redemption. We come to God as sinners incapable of saving ourselves and we, by faith, receive His gift of grace. Anything else added to that equation STOPS being grace. There is a mental block that prevents some people from recognizing just how destitute we are - that there is not one thing we do that can possibly make us worthy of eternal life - and that the ONLY way we can be saved is by receiving the gift of eternal life through faith in Christ. That block is the product of man-made religion that wants to pile on the praise of others, that NEEDS to believe we are really good and pious people. It is a sham and a lie that comes from the enemy of all men's souls - the devil.

Only the Holy Spirit of God can remove those fabricated blocks, take away the scales over our eyes unstop our ears and give us a heart of flesh in place of the one of stone. He has and HE will continue to do it, to the glory of God!

Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His nercy He saved us. (Titus 3:5)