Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why.....
The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.
We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.
While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Centers Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.
Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pews data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.
Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the churchs teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the churchs social justice agenda.
One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.
Spiritual needs
The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their spiritual needs were not being met in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they found a religion they like more (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.
In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.
Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the churchs teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the churchs teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the churchs teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.
The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.
People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.
Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.
Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is very strong, while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as very strong today as an adult.
Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.
Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.
Becoming Protestant
If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.
Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the churchs teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the churchs teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the churchs treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.
Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the churchs teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.
Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the churchs teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).
What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.
Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her churchs services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.
Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.
Lessons from the data
There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.
First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is one in being with the Father or consubstantial with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.
While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.
Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.
The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.
Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.
Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.
The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.
God freely lavishes His grace on us. There’s no Scripture that says that grace is dispensed in packets called sacraments.
“It isn’t “my” way at all! What does God say? It appears that no matter how many times the canard is disputed that “Protestant” denominationalism means thousands of different interpretations of Scripture, people such as you refuse to hear it and actually think about and throw it up at every opportunity. It is intellectually dishonest and those who use it - even after being corrected - prove that they have no genuine interest in dialog and only participate to try to get the better of another. When comments such as yours start being ignored, you will know why.”
~ ~ ~
Okay, then explain why God speaks of oneness of belief
in Scripture?
Explain Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism
There is always the hope of Salvation. I am absolutely sure that many, many of the Catholics I have known have made it. I am equally sure that more than a few of the Protestants I have know who brashly proclaimed their own Salvation fell short. The truth of such things is known only to God.
Peace be to you.
The actions or lack thereof of a young Jewish girl would hardly stop or frustrate the will of the Almighty from being accomplished.
“Mary of course, in a much greater way. ~Co-~ means WITH.”
Actually the prefix “co” indicates a partnership or joint participation as in “co-owner, co-editor” etc.
Mary didn't do any redeeming or buying back of mankind nor could she.
When is this nonsense going to stop? The Church declares that in its doctrines Mary is the Co-redemptrix and then very specifically and unambiguously defines the term. Then some non-Catholics jump in and say "no that isn't what you mean!".
Such comments aren't even worth refuting, especially when the offer has been made numerous times to explain the teaching and the offenders have opted for continued ignorance. I do pity them and pray that the gift of wisdom and understanding be given them if not the gift of knowledge. I also pray that I get the gift of patience to continue to suffer the fools.
Peace be with you.
There's the certainty, unless you want to try to tell us that the Apostle John lied to us.
1 John 5:9-15 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
Or perhaps you are going to claim that Jesus lied to us?
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
John 10:27-29 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Hebrews 11:1-2 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Faith is taking God at his word about spiritual realities.
If someone doesn't believe that what God says is true, they don't have faith in Him.
CYC: The actions or lack thereof of a young Jewish girl would hardly stop or frustrate the will of the Almighty from being accomplished.
God didn't give every person He created free will? Why bother sending the archangel Gabriel? Where does the "lack there of" apply to Mary?
Mary of course, in a much greater way. ~Co-~ means WITH.
Actually the prefix co indicates a partnership or joint participation as in co-owner, co-editor etc.
Exactly, Mary's free will choice, her "joint participation" in, another word "with" the Trinity's plan for mankind's redemption.
Mary didn't do any redeeming or buying back of mankind nor could she.
A person's prayers never helps "with" the salvation of far away loved ones or helps "with" something temporal here? Yes they do. How come our actions in helping Our Lord, our prayers are fine but Mary saying "yes" I will watch My Son die a terrible tortured death doesn't count? Which shows more of a cooperation in God's plan? Thank Mary, it would please Our Lord very much, reject the anti-Mary belief.
“When is this nonsense going to stop? The Church declares that in its doctrines Mary is the Co-redemptrix and then very specifically and unambiguously defines the term. Then some non-Catholics jump in and say “no that isn’t what you mean!”.
~ ~ ~
I think it’s to denigrate Mary because of upbringing.
Change is a very good thing when it’s positive. It’s also a sign of maturity.
The Eucharist, to love and honor Mary, give her your heart too, it can be Jesus and Mary.
AND Confession to priest.
Three majors!!!!! You will make it through to the 7th
Day.
Who are "those" exactly?
Another excellent example of "Do as I say, not as I do."?
"That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word"
No she wasnt. If she was sinless she wouldnt have needed a savior. She knew she was a sinner in need of a savior.
So Catholicism isnt for everybody ey? Dont Catholics claim to be the only true body of Christ? I wonder what Jesus would say about locking those dull witted out of His grace and promise of salvation? How revealing that you would make a comment like that.
Yes
>>Would God simply give to each person of good will a silent inner conviction of being saved?<<
Yes. The peace that passes all understanding.
>>Each time that we felt the need of divine help, would we simply ask for it and immediately feel welling up within us a great surge of spiritual strength?<<
Yes
>>A Sacrament is an ~ outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.<<
Nonsense. A sacrament is an outward symbolism of something that has already happened.
Fell short? So a person does earn or deserve salvation by his actions? You cant fall short if Christ already gave you salvation and you trusted in that. Only through your own actions can you fall short because Christ did not fall short. Please dont tell us that Catholics dont believe the man must through his own actions earn or deserve salvation when so often you show that you believe he must.
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
amen and amen!
After the great warning? Ive got news for you. The warning has already been given.
Good work on your link! I “favorited” it.
You should go brush up on your Strunk & White. "Those" is the plural of "that". It is a plural pronoun used to narrowly specify the subject. "They" is a general plural pronoun used widely and inclusively refer to the subject. The two words are not interchangeable.
Unlike the general reference to Catholics you are alluding to, my reference was to the specific group who are either too intellectually incapable, too intellectually lazy or are too intellectually dishonest to learn the actual teachings of the Church before spouting off.
This is not another case of "Do as I say, not as I do", it is another prime example of the attempted interpretionan original intent without a firm grasp of the linguistic concepts and meanings involved.
Peace be with you.
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