Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why.....
The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.
We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.
While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.
Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.
Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.
One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.
Spiritual needs
The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.
In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.
Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.
The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.
People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.
Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.
Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.
Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.
Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.
Becoming Protestant
If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.
Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.
Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.
Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).
What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.
Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.
Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.
Lessons from the data
There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.
First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.
While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.
Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.
The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.
Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.
Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.
The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.
pt: Funny, I can't find where Jesus made such a qualification, despite the quotation marks.... Fix that and I'll bother with the rest of your epistle.
For all Catholics bragging about how much Scripture they're exposed to in mass, they sure demonstrate an appalling ignorance of it.
John 17:20-26 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”
boatbums
“1 Cor. 12:10, “To another (man, person),....” not to the whole congregation, not to the whole church but an individual person. Paul was speaking of individual persons (1 Cor.12:7), “But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal”
You are speaking the truth.”
THE ABOVE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT CYC STATED INITIALLY. WHY? YOU CAN’T SHOW ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE PRIVATE JUDGMENT, SCRIPTURE REJECTS PRIVATE JUDGMENT.
boatbums
“Funny that our new FRiend has no qualms about posting the various “prophecies” of his “prophets” - even one who is claimed to be for the “Protestants” - but he disputes the specific gifts God said he gave to the church, to build up his body of believers claiming that only “his” Roman Catholic Church hierarchy has that gift. Funny thing about exclusionary doctrines, they usually come back to bite you in time.
YOU’RE NOT BEING NICE, TALK TO ME DIRECTLY. THE BIBLE CAME FROM THE CHURCH. GOD GAVE THE CHURCH THE GIFT TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE NOT EVERY PERSON READING IT. IT’S BASIC AND LOGICAL.
YOUR WORDS ABOUT PROPHECY, DON’T REJECT CATHOLIC PROPHETS AND YOUR OWN PROPHETS. THE CATHOLIC MESSAGE FROM HEAVEN SPECIFICALLY STATED THE WORDS WRITTEN IN REVELATION 6:16-17 TO DESCRIBE THE GREAT WARNING.
THE PROTESTANT MESSENGER, JESUS TOLD SUSAN O’MARRA ON MAY 24TH, IT’S VERY IMPORTANT. THE “SUDDEN” AND “DEEP CHANGE”, GOD IS PERSONALLY GOING TO SHOW YOU AND ME, EVERY SOUL ON THE EARTH THE TRUE FAITH AND IT WILL BE SUDDEN, DURING THE GREAT WARNING.
JESUS HAS BEEN IN “YOUR MIDST” IN A SPECIAL WAY, IN THE EUCHARIST. JESUS IS SAYING TO YOU “OTHER GENERATIONS DID NOT WANT OR DESIRE” THE EUCHARIST, THE “HIGHER”, IS THE EUCHARIST, IT IS THE PINNACLE OF THE FAITH. OTHER GENERATIONS “COULD NOT RECEIVE” BECAUSE PROTESTANTISM CANNOT CONFECT THE EUCHARIST.
YOU GO “HIGHER” BECAUSE IT IS JESUS’ PRESENCE IN THE
EUCHARIST THAT SPIRITUALLY MATURES YOU. NON-CATHOLIC CHRISTIANS WILL ACCEPT THE EUCHARIST SOON BUT NOT ALL THOUGH...SADLY.
May 24, 2012
Jesus:
..You know this, for I have told you many times, but many still do not yield to Me. Many still do not grasp this great reality. FOR YOU ARE THE GENERATION IN WHICH I WILL BRING GREAT, AND SUDDEN, AND DEEP CHANGE. FOR YOU ARE THE ONES THAT HAVE SAID TO ME, “LORD COME.” AND I SAY TO YOU,
MY CHILDREN, I HAVE COME AND I AM IN YOUR MIDST. But you must open wide to Me. You must yield to Me completely. You must allow Me to bring change. You must allow Me to add to you those things I want to add, and to remove those things from you I want to remove. For as you move with Me, you will shift greatly and speedily, and completely. I will move you day by day, and you will look back and you will say, “Surely I did not know it would be this way.” For it shall be My way, saith the Lord. It shall be My way, and it shall be according to what I have written, and according to what I have told you would come. But do you understand the things that will be done? Do you understand the changes that will be in the heavens? The changes that will be in the earth? And the changes that will be in the church?
I say to you, look in the mirror, My Children, and see. See My reality! For I am revealed to you through the mirror of My Word. And if you will look into the mirror of My Word and ask Me to open it unto you, I shall open it new. I shall disclose to you those things that are true. Those things that have waited for their revealing, THAT OTHER GENERATIONS DID NOT WANT OR DESIRE, AND COULD NOT RECEIVE TO GO HIGHER. I say to you, My Children, you shall conceive, because you shall believe, and those that believe shall cleave to My Word, and My Word shall do it. For I am watching over My Word to perform it, saith the Lord. I am doing it in a manner and in a way that most of My People will not do and obey. I say to you, few, will look into My mirror and see My way. Because many do not yet want My way, but I cry out to you, My Church, everyday. Want My way! Look My way! Listen My way! Speak My way! Live My way! Hear My way! Obey My way! And everyday, more and more open to Me. I am your reality!...
http://www.ft111.com/eagles.htm
Yes you do, you defend Martin Luther’s heretical teachings instead of the Church.
In your dreams. Nobody follows Luther as you follow your pope.
Catholics are singularly incapable of thinking outside the box they have been brainwashed to think in.
Just because Catholics follow a man, they think that EVERYONE does. It's projection, plain and simple. Get it through your head. Just because there's agreement, doesn't mean it's following.
How ironic that Catholics continually accuse Protestants of being divided and in factions and yet continually accuse them of following one man (Luther or Calvin depending) just like they do.
There's clearly nothing that any Protestant can do or believe that's right in a Catholic's eyes.
Protestants are inconsistent in belief, proof, you make up new doctrines not taught by the Apostles besides
Such as?
What doctrines taught by the apostles do we believe? What did we make up?
Specifics please.....
Yeah, I know and it's not the only difference between EO and the RCC either.
Prove that grace is apportioned by the sacraments.
The Constitution is also a static document. It is dependent on a dynamic judicial organ to apply it in the spirit in which it was intended...a failure shared by both “our current mess” and Protestants in general.
Any parent knows what happens when they give their children a rule the child doesn’t like. Said child immediately attempts to find away around that rule.
Protestants just shop for “new parents” instead of submitting to the dynamic authority that won’t let them skirt the rules they don’t like.
Moreover, Protestants treat the Bible as the “note” left by their parents in the parents absence....subject to their own “interpretation” until Mom and Dad come home to adjudicate the child’s adherence to the instructions left in the note.
Believing every Tom, Dick, and Harry who comes down the pike and yet rejecting the divinely inspired, God breathed Scripture is a sure path to perdition.
Only a fool would toss aside *It is written...* in favor of the kind of drivel you’ve been posting, most of which makes NO sense at all.
“Don’t reject prophets”???
If I ever meet a real prophet, I won’t reject him. What I do reject and will continue to reject is the false teachings of the enemy who can disguise himself as an angel of light. People with no discernment are easy prey for that kind of deception.
You are being led astray following those people and believing everything they say. Go to the word, the same thing Jesus used.
“To another discerning of spirits. Comp. 1 John 4:1. This must refer to some power of searching into the secrets of the heart; of knowing what were a man's purposes, views, and feelings. It may relate either to the power of determining by what spirit a man spoke who pretended to be inspired, whether he was truly inspired or whether he was an impostor, or it may refer to the power of seeing whether a man was sincere or not in his Christian profession. That the apostles had this power, is apparent from the case of Ananias and Sapphira, (Acts 5:1-10,) and from the case of Elymas, Acts 13:9-11. It is evident that where the gift of prophecy and inspiration was possessed, and where it would confer such advantages on those who possessed it, there would be many pretenders to it; and that it would be of vast importance to the infant church, in order to prevent imposition, that there should be a power in the church of detecting the imposture.”
But you say,
“Wrong. The discerning of spirits is not the gift “to distinguish between true and false writings.” I need to check, there is a word for the Church’s divine gift from God to interpret Scripture.”
Well, I know what that word is but you go back to your website and see if it's there, I'll wait right here, and while there see if you can find a better explanation than what I gave, something a bit better than,
“Private Judgment is heresy.” I'm waiting.
Unfortunately for you, the passage you quote does not support the "unity of spirit" caveat you wish it to.
It supports MY contention.
If it didn't, I would not have walked away from over twenty years as an Evangelical.
That's right. And I know my Bible, too. Well enough to see you handle citations like a kid faking a foreign accent.
Talk about someone who can't think outside a box....
You continue to mock me personally, I forgive you.
Removing books from the Canon of Scripture is “removing books from the Bible.”
Martin Luther had no authority to take them out, he went
with the wrong much earlier group, saying they did the same. God doesn’t direct heretics and apostates. The
Palestinian Jews also rejected the Gospel.
And who said Martin Luther removed anything from the New Testament? He WANTED TO but was stopped. He despised the Book of James, it conflicted with his false teaching, faith alone.
I would suggest, read the quotes of the first Christians and think about authority.
The fact Protestants push the "born again" dogma, yet reject the Eucharist when the scriptural emphasis on the Body and Blood is far more pronounced.
“For all Catholics bragging about how much Scripture they’re exposed to in mass, they sure demonstrate an appalling ignorance of it.”
~ ~ ~
There’s no brag. You can’t get too much Scripture. You are
pridefully saying you have more knowledge of it. How can
that be? Without the RCC, you would not have Scripture.
Catholics humbly accept the Church, her interpretation of
Scripture. What about you? How can God the Holy Spirit
guide Protestants into so many interpretations, by the
thousands~@? Look how you all argue in this one little
thread.
And making false accusations about rejecting Scripture doesn't lead there, too?
Catholics don't reject Scripture. We reject your notion that God changed his mind on how his Church should operate and delegate authority.
That was a quote, padre.
Note that it references Moses (and his seat) functioning as a Judge, not a teaching authority.
Exo 18:13 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.
Exo 18:14 And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
Exo 18:15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
Exo 18:16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.
Exo 18:20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
And thou shalt teach...Yes, Moses was THE teaching authority...How can you even make a statement like you make with this staring you in the face???
Or perhaps you quote from your Catholic sources and don't bother to look and see what God says about it...
The word you’re hunting for Charismata, from The Catholic Enyclopedia:The Greek term charisma denotes any good gift that flows from God’s benevolent love (charis) unto man; any Divine grace or favour, ranging from redemption and life eternal to comfort in communing with brethren in the Faith (Romans 5:15, 16; 6:23; 11:29). The term has, however, a narrower meaning: the spiritual graces and qualifications granted to every Christian to perform his task in the Church: “Every one hath his proper gift [charisma] from God; one after this manner, and another after that” (1 Corinthians 7:7 etc.). Lastly, in its narrowest sense, charisma is the theological term for denoting extraordinary graces given to individual Christians for the good of others. These, or most of these, are enumerated by St. Paul (1 Corinthians 12:4, 9, 28, 30, 31), and form the subject-matter of the present article. They are: “The word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, the grace of healing, the working of miracles, prophecy, the discerning of spirits, diverse kinds of tongues, interpretation of speeches” (1 Corinthians 12:8-10). To these are added the charismata of apostles, prophets, doctors, helps, governments (ibid., 28).”
“That was a quote, padre.”
~ ~ ~
Forgive me, I mistook you for a non-Catholic Christian. So many responses.
I love your quote, if only they would believe, all the
other misunderstandings about the faith would be answered.
“The fact Protestants push the “born again” dogma, yet reject the EUCHARIST when the scriptural emphasis on the Body and Blood is far more pronounced.”
Well of course it's a metaphor...Did you think Jesus was speaking of a polished mahogany, gold inlaid throne that the Pharisees passed from generation to generation like your religion does???
The 'seat' was wherever Moses sat down (or stood) to teach and judge the Tribes of Israel...
And it can be found all over the OT...
I would say no more than a handful...
You forgot to answer the last clause.....
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