Posted on 05/16/2012 3:48:19 PM PDT by wmfights
Romans 9:6 is a passage sometimes used by supersessionists to show that the church is explicitly called Israel.[1] This verse reads, “But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel.” Some see in the first mention of “Israel” a concept of Israel that goes beyond ethnic boundaries. Thus, Paul is allegedly making a distinction between ethnic Israel and a spiritual Israelthat consists of all believers including Gentiles. This is the view of Ridderbos: “Even the distinction Paul makes within national Jerusalem between who is and who is not a ‘Jew,’ between ‘Israel’ and ‘those who are of Israel’ (Rom. 2:28ff.; 9:6), tends to a usage that denotes the believing gentiles as well and therefore the Christian church as such as “Israel.”[2] In reference to Rom 9:6–8 Wayne Grudem declares, “Paul here implies that the true children of Abraham, those who are in the most true sense ‘Israel,’ are not the nation of Israel by physical descent from Abraham but those who have believed in Christ.”[3] In his comments on Rom 9:6, Robertson states, “It is those who, in addition to being related to Abraham by natural descendency, also relate to him by faith, plus those Gentiles who are ingrafted by faith, that constitute the true Israel of God.”[4]
This verse, though, is not a supporting text for supersessionism as most commentators on Romans 9:6 acknowledge. As Murray has noted, Rom 9:6 is teaching that “there is an ‘Israel’ within ethnic Israel.”[5] Paul is not saying that believing Gentiles are now part of Israel. Instead, believing Jews are the true Israel. William Sanday and Arthur C. Headlam make this point:
But St. Paul does not mean here to distinguish a spiritual Israel (i.e. the Christian Church) from the fleshly Israel, but to state that the promises made to Israel might be fulfilled even if some of his descendants were shut out from them. What he states is that not all the physical descendants of Jacob are necessarily inheritors of the Divine promises implied in the sacred name Israel.[6]
Thus, the true Israelite is one who is a Jew ethnically and one has believed in Jesus Christ (see Romans 2:28–29). Romans 9:6, therefore, is not a supporting text for Replacement Theology.
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[1] Those who view Rom 9:6 as including believing Gentiles in the concept of “Israel” include: Ridderbos, Paul, 336, n. 30; Grudem, Systematic Theology, 861; C. H. Dodd, The Epistle of Paul to the Romans(London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1932), 155; Goppelt, Typos, 140; Ellis, Paul’s Use of the Old Testament, 137; and James D. G. Dunn, Romans 9–16, WBC, vol. 38b (Dallas: Word, 1988), 540; LaRondelle, The Israel of God in Prophecy, 121; Bright, The Kingdom of God, 226–27. Commenting on Rom 9:6, Origen stated, “For if the judgment respecting the ‘Jew inwardly’ be adopted, we must understand that, as there is a ‘bodily’ race of Jews, so also is there a race of ‘Jews inwardly.’” Origen, First Principles 4.21, ANF 4:370.
[2] Ridderbos, Paul, 336, n. 30.
[3] Grudem, Systematic Theology, 861.
[4] O. Palmer Robertson, The Christ of the Covenants (Phillipsburg, N.J.: P & R, 1980), 40.
[5] Murray, The Epistle to the Romans, 2:9.
[6] William Sanday and Arthur C. Headlam, The Epistle to the Romans, ICC (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1923), 240. See also Douglas Moo, The Epistle to the Romans, NICNT (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1996), 574. About Rom 9:6, Gutbrod writes, “We are not told here that Gentile Christians are the true Israel. The distinction at R. 9:6 does not go beyond what is presupposed at Jn. 1:47. . . .” Walter Gutbrod, “’Israhl, k. t. l.,” in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. 3, ed. Gerhard Kittel (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1965), 387.
The promises that Jesus Christ made to His nation Israel will be completely fulfilled during His millennial kingdom, after the Jewish people have been purified and brought to the end of themselves during the Tribulation and come to faith in Jesus as their Messiah. They will be made ready during the Tribulation to receive all the promises and blessings that God has said they will get.
If you know what that “sacred secret” is then the how would be clear also.
The "sacred secret" has absolutely nothing to do with God's dealings with Israel. Jesus Christ came in the flesh, died and rose again for the purpose of providing salvation to all who would make the choice to accept that free gift. That event is something completely and totally separate from God's program and plans and purposes for the nation Israel and the Jewish people.
There is nothing whatsoever in the Bible that would lead one to believe that because Jesus made it possible for Gentiles to come to Him for salvation that somehow means that He has thrown Israel away and is done with them. Not one letter of Scripture indicates that. True believers in Christ, the Church, are a spiritual body. Israel is a literal, physical nation to whom promises were made and to whom those promises will be kept.
But to take the view that the present day city of Jerusalem and Israel is or will become the nation of God demands the question of whether it will be under the same law covenant as ancient Israel or another covenant. Which shall it be?
As was explained in post 30, Israel will fulfill the New Covenant during the millennial kingdom.
“The promises that Jesus Christ made to His nation Israel will be completely fulfilled during His millennial kingdom, after the Jewish people have been purified and brought to the end of themselves during the Tribulation and come to faith in Jesus as their Messiah. They will be made ready during the Tribulation to receive all the promises and blessings that God has said they will get.”
The Jewish people and “His nation Israel” one and the same?
If not...How does one become part of “His nation Israel”
“The “sacred secret” has absolutely nothing to do with God's dealings with Israel. Jesus Christ came in the flesh, died and rose again for the purpose of providing salvation to all who would make the choice to accept that free gift. That event is something completely and totally separate from God's program and plans and purposes for the nation Israel and the Jewish people.”
But you just said the Jewish people would come to faith in Jesus as their Messiah (or God's anointed one)
Is that not true of all who gain salvation? Faith in Christ, accepting him as a sacrifice for our sis? And if that “sacred secret” has nothing to do with God's dealings with Israel then what does it have to do with? In deed, what is that “secret”?
“There is nothing whatsoever in the Bible that would lead one to believe that because Jesus made it possible for Gentiles to come to Him for salvation that somehow means that He has thrown Israel away and is done with them. Not one letter of Scripture indicates that. True believers in Christ, the Church, are a spiritual body. Israel is a literal, physical nation to whom promises were made and to whom those promises will be kept”
As Jesus said he came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. And Jesus did give the Jews first opportunity to accept him by restricting his preaching to them.
So it was not his rejection the nation that made the way open for Gentiles but the nations rejection of him. They did not want him to gather them together as a hen gathers its chicks. Jerusalem was the “killer of prophets” whose house was abandoned to her and the kingdom taken from her to give to another “nation”. That certainly was a promise kept.
So how does one become part of this “literal, physical nation of Israel? By converting to Judaism?
“As was explained in post 30, Israel will fulfill the New Covenant during the millennial kingdom”
From the city of Jerusalem in the Middle East or from heaven?
As described in Genesis 12, the Jewish people, as descended from Abraham, make up the nation of Israel. The literal, physical nation of Israel is made up of an ethnic people, descended from one man, known as the Jewish people.
But you just said the Jewish people would come to faith in Jesus as their Messiah (or God's anointed one)
Is that not true of all who gain salvation? Faith in Christ, accepting him as a sacrifice for our sis? And if that “sacred secret” has nothing to do with God's dealings with Israel then what does it have to do with? In deed, what is that “secret”?
There is no "secret" - the Gospel is there in plain sight for all who want to see it - and it is God, not I, Who states that the Jewish people will come to faith in Jesus Christ.
The fact that there are Gentiles who take Jesus up on His offer of salvation does not overlap God's purpose and plans for Israel and the Jewish people, nor does that fact replace Israel in God's economy. The two are mutually exclusive, and separate. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
As Jesus said he came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. And Jesus did give the Jews first opportunity to accept him by restricting his preaching to them.
So it was not his rejection the nation that made the way open for Gentiles but the nations rejection of him. They did not want him to gather them together as a hen gathers its chicks. Jerusalem was the “killer of prophets” whose house was abandoned to her and the kingdom taken from her to give to another “nation”. That certainly was a promise kept.
This is not news. The Jews rejected their Messiah, they have been temporarily put aside although there are many Jewish people who have, in this present Church age, come to salvation through faith in Christ, there are promises that God made to the literal, physical nation of Israel that have nothing to do with the Church, and those promises will be kept at a time in the future known as the millennial reign.
The promises God made to the nation Israel and the Jewish people do not apply to the Church.
So how does one become part of this “literal, physical nation of Israel? By converting to Judaism?
No one can "become part of this literal, physical nation of Israel". The nation of Israel that will receive the promises and blessings that God promised them are the generation of Jews who go through the Tribulation and come to faith in Jesus as their Messiah. There is no mention anywhere in Scripture of Gentiles being a part of this literal nation of Jewish believers who will fulfill the New Covenant.
The only chance Gentiles have at salvation is to accept Christ as Savior during this present time, when Jesus makes Himself available for salvation, and during the Tribulation, when people will be saved but will not have the guarantee of eternal security as those who know Christ now have.
No Gentiles will be part of the nation of Israel that exists during the millennial kingdom and which has been saved and reconciled to their God and who will, as God states, have His law written on their hearts.
And to "convert to Judaism" at this point in time is to reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah and is not advisable.
From the city of Jerusalem in the Middle East or from heaven?
The exact land that will be given to the Jews is detailed in Genesis 15:18-21:
And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that f passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the LORD g made a covenant with Abram, saying: h "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates - 19 "the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 "the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 "the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."
As we know, Israel does not at this present time possess all the land that God promised them, and we know from Scripture that when Israel fulfills the New Covenant during the millennial kingdom, they will be given and live in the land, not Heaven, that God promised them.
In addition, we know from Scripture that Jesus will rule from Jerusalem during His millennial kingdom:
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day "HOLINESS TO THE LORD" shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts. (Zechariah 14:16-21)
Surely you know that those who adhere to faith are the ones who are Abraham's seed, said Paul. (Gal.3:7)
Thus being Greek, Jew, slave, freeman, male, female was of no matter, you are all one person in Christ. (Gal. 3:28)
Moreover if you belong to Christ you are really Abraham's seed, heirs of a promise.(Gal. 3:29)
Paul thus identifies who makes up that nation that was to come from Abraham and being Jewish or not was irrelevant.
“There is no secret”? Paul said there was and he spoke by God's spirit did he not?
Paul spoke by revelation from God and it God's view point he was giving about who was being recognized now as a “seed of Abraham”.
And that sacred secret?
(Eph. 3:5,6) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
After so saying Paul applies the promises made to Abraham and Isaac to the Jerusalem above, not to the then existing fleshly nation of Israel.
So being part of that “literal, physical nation Israel” meant nothing when it comes to who are children of God,
” the children of the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.” (Romans 9:8)
“No Gentiles will be part of the nation of Israel that exists during the millennial kingdom and which has been saved and reconciled to their God and who will, as God states, have His law written on their hearts.”
Paul disagrees. (Romans 9:8)
“The fact that there are Gentiles who take Jesus up on His offer of salvation does not overlap God's purpose and plans for Israel and the Jewish people, nor does that fact replace Israel in God's economy. The two are mutually exclusive, and separate. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.”
Again Paul disagrees. That which God calls Israel is made up of fleshly Jews and Gentiles and this Israel is heir to the promises. (Eph. 3:5,6)
“As we know, Israel does not at this present time possess all the land that God promised them, and we know from Scripture that when Israel fulfills the New Covenant during the millennial kingdom, they will be given and live in the land, not Heaven, that God promised them.”
Paul wrote that “the Jerusalem above is free and she is our mother” (Gal.4:26) Hence their “citizenship exists in the heavens” (Phil 3:20) “You have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem and myriads of angels.” (Heb. 12:22)
“Israel at this present time” was the result of U.N. mandate not any covenant relationship with God unless you are trying to say that nation is a continuation of the ancient Israel or the Israel of Jesus’ day.
It is from heaven that Christ will rule as the promise made to David is fulfilled. Christ sits at the right hand of God. (Acts 2:29-35)
Time after time the Scriptures make clear God will keep all his promises to Israel and shows us who this Israel is as defined by God.
The physical seed of Abraham is an identifiable, ethnic group of individuals who are separate from the Church and to whom promises have been made and to whom those promises will be kept.
Now if you continue to insist on denying this truth, in the face of Scripture that has been given to you that shows that God has made promises to this specific group of people who are not the Church, then it is up to you to demonstrate how those Scriptures that have been given to you are false and explain to God where you feel you get the authority to decide that those parts of Scripture that detail His plans for His chosen people are false.
It is up to you to explain how you have the omniscience to deny what God has said, and substitute your own finite, fallen "wisdom" for what God has said is going to happen. The fact that you embrace a doctrine that is in total contradiction with the word of God and is therefore demonic and you refuse to accept the truth you have been given puts you in an extremely dangerous place
And, after all of this, and after you have had repeated opportunities to accept the Bible as God wrote it, even though you don't like it the way God wrote it, you are back to where you began: denying the Word of God, and spiritualizing that which God wrote as literal, and lying about who God is and what He has said and promised. After all this, we are back to the base truth, that those who will call God a liar and say that He deceives people and breaks His promises are described beautifully in God's Book:
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
I'll refer you to post 30 so that you can see the actual danger you have chosen to put yourself in. Denial of Scripture carries a very high price.
Good luck.
I certainly hope not. But from your question I see that you still fail to understand just who the covenant nation of Israel is.
Before I give up, here are some questions for you. Maybe these will help clarify things:
Spiritually by virtue of the fact that he has accepted Christ as Savior. The spiritual child of Abraham is not the same as the ethnic, physical seed of Abraham, nor does the spiritual child of Abraham replace the ethnic, physical seed of Abraham.
Is a jewish non believer a child of Abraham?
A Jewish believer is both a spiritual child of Abraham and the ethnic, physical seed of Abraham.
In John 8:39ff are these children of Abraham?
They are the ethnic, physical seed of Abraham but not the spiritual child of Abraham because they rejected Christ as Savior.
Is a gentile believer a member of the commonwealth of Israel?
A Gentile believer is part of the spiritual Israel, in that they became adopted into the family of God by faith in Jesus Christ which was offered first to the Jew and meant for the Jews. They are not part of the literal nation of Israel, as they are not the physical seed of Abraham, and are not included in the promises that God made to the ethnic, physical seed of Abraham.
Why doesn't the current "nation of Israel" perform the daily sacrifices?
Actually, the Jews have resumed animal sacrifice and have been since around 2008.
However, because their temple was destroyed in 70AD, they were dispersed throughout the world, and have not rebuilt their temple.
We know from Daniel 9:27 that the third Jewish temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will be carried on in that temple because midway through the Tribulation, the Antichrist puts a stop to it, stands in the temple, and declares himself to be God:
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abomination shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate."
So while limited sacrifices are happening now, shortly the temple will be rebuilt and the sacrifices in the temple will resume.
Would the reinstatement of the daily sacrifice by the "nation of Israel" be ok?
It's not "ok", however, when the Church age ends at the Rapture, God will turn His attention back to His people and will complete the last seven years of Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. The Jews will pick up where they left off, their temple will be rebuilt, and they will have animal sacrifices.
This will end at the end of the Tribulation when the remnant of surviving Jews come to faith in Jesus as their Messiah and are given all that God has promised them and are restored in a covenant relationship with God.
It doesn't matter what our opinion is, our opinions can't be more meaningless. What God has said is going to happen will happen, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
Who are the elect?
The word "elect" is used different times in Scripture and refers to different groups of believers. Both in Hebrew and Greek the word for elect means chosen and is used in a number of ways. It refers to the Messiah in Isaiah 42:1, Israel in Isaiah 45:4, the Church in Romans 8:33, and tribulation believers in Matt. 24:22. In Mark 13:27 Old Testament saints, the raptured Church, and Tribulation believers are all included as the elect.
Depending on the context in which the word is used in any given passage will reveal which group the word "elect" is referring to.
Words such as "false" "wrong" "error" do not attribute motive.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Thank you.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
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