Graven Images: Altering the Commandments?

CNA ^ | A Catholic Response, Inc.

[GonzoII]

Graven Images: Altering the Commandments?

And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent... Numbers 21:8-9

Recently we received an 80-page booklet entitled "What's Behind The New World Order?" It can be traced back to the writings of Ellen G. White, foundress of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. According to this booklet, the Catholic Church is behind the New World Order. The booklet claims that this is true, since the Church is the beast of Revelation (Rev. 17). It attempts to prove this claim by exposing the "marks of the beast." Due to limited space, only one charge will be considered. This is a common charge used against the Catholic Church.

According to this booklet, one "mark of the beast" is the alteration of God's Commandments. The booklet claims that the Catholic Church dropped the "Second Commandment" which forbids "graven images", i.e. statues. Allegedly the Catholic Church condones statue worship.

Now one version of the Ten Commandments can be found in the fifth chapter of the Book of Deuteronomy (also Exodus 20). Comparing Deut. 5:6-21 in a Catholic Bible with that found in a Protestant Bible reveals no essential differences. A few words may differ but that is due to differing translations. The major difference is not content but how Catholics and Protestants traditionally divide up and number these Commandments. Unfortunately the Bible lumps the Ten Commandments all together without division or numbering. (The verse numbers are no help since they were added by Bible scholars many centuries after Christ.)

Traditionally Catholics consider Deut. 5:6-10 as the First Commandment, verse 11 as the Second Commandment, verses 12-15 as the Third Commandment and so on. Verse 21 is split up into the Ninth and Tenth Commandments - distinguishing the desire (lust) to commit adultery from the desire (greed) to steal. This division scheme was advocated by St. Augustine in his writings on Exodus. Traditionally Protestants consider Deut. 5:6-7 as the First Commandment, verses 8-10 as the Second Commandment, verse 11 as the Third Commandment and so on. Verse 21 is kept together as the Tenth Commandment.

According to the RSV Bible and Catholic Tradition, the First Commandment is:

(6)I am the LORD your God,...(7)You shall have no other gods before me. (8)You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; (9)you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, (10)but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. [Deut. 5:6-10; RSV]

Verse 7 forbids the worship of other gods, while verses 8-9 forbid the making of graven (carved) images that would be worshipped as gods, i.e. idols. Now worshipping statues with divine honor is one way of worshipping other gods. Verse 7 is a general statement of the First Commandment, while verses 8-9 give a specific case of this Commandment. Verses 9-10 present the punishments and rewards that are associated with these Commandments.

By combining together Deut. 5:6-10 into one Commandment, the Catholic Church is accused of altering the Commandments and covering up God's command forbidding graven images. Suspicions are further fueled when Catholic books only present the general form of the Commandment, Deut. 5:7, in order to expedite memorization. Now one must ask the question: "Does God forbid the making of statues, or does He condemn the worship of statues?" If God condemns the divine worship of statues, then the Catholic division scheme is justified since these images would be "other gods before" Him. A separate Commandment based on Deut. 5:8-10 would be redundant.

Now if God simply forbids the making of graven images, then there are problems elsewhere in the Bible. First, in Exodus 25:18-21, God commands Moses to make two statues of angels (cherubim) for the top of the Ark of the Covenant. Later in Numbers 21:8-9, God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent, so that the people who were bitten by snakes could look upon it and be healed.

Now it is true that centuries later King Hezekiah destroyed it; however, this action was done because the people worshipped it as a god (2 Kings 18:4). In the Gospel, Jesus compared Himself to the bronze serpent (John 3:14). Continuing in the Old Testament, the inner sanctuary of the Temple contained two large statues of angels according to 1 Kings 6:23-28. In the following verses, Solomon also had the walls of the Temple decorated with carved images of angels, palm trees and flowers (1 Kings 6:29ff). During the Babylonian Captivity, Ezekiel had a vision from God about the design of the new Temple. According to Ezekiel 41:17-25, this new Temple contained graven images of angels and palm trees. These passages in the Bible indicate that God does not forbid the making of statues. If God truly condemned the making of graven images in the "Second Commandment", then He must have changed His mind later in the Old Testament.

The Catholic Church during the Council of Trent (1545-1563) issued a clear statement concerning images and statues. According to the 25th Session of this General Council:

The images of Christ and of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the saints are to be had and retained particularly in churches, and due honor and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity or virtue is believed to be in them on account of which they are to be worshipped, or that anything is to be asked of them, or that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old by the Gentiles, who placed their hopes in idols; but because the honor which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which these images represent; so that we through the images which we kiss...or bend the knee, adore Christ and venerate the saints, whom they represent. [The Canons & Decrees of the Council of Trent (TAN Books, 1978) p. 215-6]

The Church does NOT compel her members to kneel or pray before images. No one is allowed by the Church to pray to images since they have no ears to hear or power to help us. The Church allows for the veneration of images as long as the honor is directed towards Christ and His saints.

On a related issue, some Christians may object to the veneration of images of the saints since they believe that honor should be directed towards God alone and not towards Mary or the saints (1 Tim. 1:17). This objection arises from a confusion between divine honor (adoration - supreme honor proper only for God) and respectful honor proper for men. According to the Bible, the people of God bowed down before King David to show him honor (2 Sam. 24:20; 1 Chron. 29:20; 21:21). Obadiah in 1 Kings 18:7 fell prostrate before Elijah showing him reverence for being a prophet of God. In the Ten Commandments, we are told to honor our mother and father (Deut. 5:16). Even Jesus defended and obeyed this Commandment (Mark 7:9-13; Luke 2:51). At least for Mary, our honor to her is in imitation of Jesus, her Son (1 Cor. 11:1). The Church allows for the veneration of the saints and their images as long as it remains honor proper for men. It is good to honor the saints for their love and trust in God (Matt. 22:31-32; Heb. 11:1-12:1).

The Catholic Church has not altered the Ten Commandments of God. The Church has not dropped the "Second Commandment" as the booklet alleges. The Catholic numbering scheme may differ with the Protestant numbering scheme, but this is due to a difference in tradition and not an alteration of God's Commandments. Unfortunately the Bible is not clear on how to divide or number the Ten Commandments. If this difference is scandalous, it would be interesting to know what the author of the booklet thought of Jesus Christ when He reduced God's Commandments to the Two Great Commandments in Matt. 22:36-40.

Finally the Church strictly condemns the adoration (divine worship) of statues, images or even the saints, since this is idolatry and in direct violation of the First Commandment. For Christians a crucifix should not be considered merely as a statue of Jesus hanging on a cross, but as a reminder of the high cost of our salvation as well as His words to us:

"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." [Mark 8:34]

Printed with permission from A Catholic Response, Inc.

[GonzoII]

Now if God simply forbids the making of graven images, then there are problems elsewhere in the Bible. First, in Exodus 25:18-21, God commands Moses to make two statues of angels (cherubim) for the top of the Ark of the Covenant. Later in Numbers 21:8-9, God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent, so that the people who were bitten by snakes could look upon it and be healed.

[Quix]

imho . . .

The evidence is abundantly clear that there are at least 2 points of hideous nonsense in the article:

1. Ellen G White is wholesale wrong about the Mark of the Beast. The best candidate at this point is the ID chip implant which . . . per the design of the elite controllers . . . will literally fulfill the prophecy—without which, citizens will be unable to buy or sell.

2. The Roman Catholic Magisterical DID alter the Written Word of God’s 10 commandments about graven images

to suit their own power mongering goals and methods.

Facts are facts and rants on either side of the facts don’t tend to alter the facts.

[Lx]

I find it hard to believe that I agree with you.

The Ten Commandments are not to be taken lightly nor edited. God’s proscription that nothing should be added or taken away from the Bible still stands and it’s a strong one.

And lest anyone forget, the Ten Commandments are but a start; I forget the actual number but God’s total commandments number over 600.

[BipolarBob]

1. Ellen G White is wholesale wrong about the Mark of the Beast. The best candidate at this point is the ID chip implant which . . . per the design of the elite controllers . . . will literally fulfill the prophecy—without which, citizens will be unable to buy or sell.

I'll defer until more evidence shows just what the "mark" is. It may prove to be ObamaCare® if that is a requirement.

2. The Roman Catholic Magisterical DID alter the Written Word of God’s 10 commandments about graven images to suit their own power mongering goals and methods. Facts are facts and rants on either side of the facts don’t tend to alter the facts. Agreed.

[raygunfan]

this is the best you anti catholics can do? simply declare the catholic church did it, and provide nothing to substantiate it or bring up facts to refute the actual article itself?

lame.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

****According to this booklet, one “mark of the beast” is the alteration of God’s Commandments.****

The SDA used to claim that “the mark of the beast” was worshiping on Sunday. They “proved” it by one of the most convoluted twisting of scriptures I have ever seen.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***The Church allows for the veneration of images as long as the honor is directed towards Christ and His saints.***

The line between veneration of what a statue represents, and worship of the statue is a very thin line. About 45 years ago a bishop in Spain stopped the veneration of a solid gold statue of Mary as he concluded the people had crossed that line and were then worshiping the statue.

[Iscool]

The Church does NOT compel her members to kneel or pray before images. No one is allowed by the Church to pray to images since they have no ears to hear or power to help us. The Church allows for the veneration of images as long as the honor is directed towards Christ and His saints.

Completely untrue...We watch your popes kneel and pray to statues far too often on tv...

That may be an inconvenient truth for you guys but live with it...You're not fooling anyone but yourselves...

And this contradicts every Catholic I have ever spoken to...Mary and the saints DO hear you and you even post bogus reference scripture out of Revelation to prove it...

Now one must ask the question: "Does God forbid the making of statues, or does He condemn the worship of statues?" If God condemns the divine worship of statues, then the Catholic division scheme is justified since these images would be "other gods before" Him. A separate Commandment based on Deut. 5:8-10 would be redundant.

And one must answer that those who worship the statues are not necessarily the ones who made the statues...

You are not to make a statue of Mary in a bath tub for your front yard...And you are not to bow and pray to a statue of Mary, anywhere...

Now if God simply forbids the making of graven images, then there are problems elsewhere in the Bible. First, in Exodus 25:18-21, God commands Moses to make two statues of angels (cherubim) for the top of the Ark of the Covenant. Later in Numbers 21:8-9, God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent, so that the people who were bitten by snakes could look upon it and be healed.

Wrong again...When God says to do something for him, you do it...When he says don't do it for you, you don't do it...You guys can thumb your noses at God and tell him that if he can tell you to do it for him, you can decide for yourselves to do it for you...But I certainly would advise against it...

The Church allows for the veneration of the saints and their images as long as it remains honor proper for men.Really??? Do men answer prayers for you and perform miracles??? And then on the other side of your mouths you claim that this veneration to Mary is 'special' veneration apart from those of your other 'special' veneration for those your religion has claimed are special saints who are apart from the normal Catholic layman...

At least for Mary, our honor to her is in imitation of Jesus, her Son

How pitiful...Jesus never bowed to or insinuated or intimated that his mother was the Queen of Heaven...He never even called her Mother...He called her woman...

it would be interesting to know what the author of the booklet thought of Jesus Christ when He reduced God's Commandments to the Two Great Commandments in Matt. 22:36-40.Jesus did not reduce the Commandments...He gave two commandments which encompasses and fulfills ALL of the Commandments...

If you violate ANY of those Commandments, you violate the two commandments that Jesus gave...

[BipolarBob]

The SDA used to claim that “the mark of the beast” was worshiping on Sunday.

What day did God rest after Creation? What day did Moses keep? What day did Jesus and the disciples keep? Which of Gods commandments starts with the words "Remember" to indicate people would either forget or it would be changed? I doubt Sunday keeping is the Mark but the forced actions to worship on a particular day or way or to a particular deity could very easily be the Mark.

[onedoug]

The worship of money, the “sacrament” of abortion, a college “education”, the HOPE of the king....

[GonzoII]

"About 45 years ago a bishop in Spain stopped the veneration of a solid gold statue of Mary as he concluded the people had crossed that line and were then worshiping the statue."

Or maybe showing excessive and immature public piety which can be scandalous to the weak.

[Razzz42]

I don’t know why people insist on confusing the New testament with the Old testament. Jews might be following the Old testament to play it safe. In the end, your sins now can be forgiven.

[Salvation]

Let me add to your list:
**The worship of money, the “sacrament” of abortion, a college “education”, the HOPE of the king....**

The biggest house, the newest car, the highest paying job, addictions to alcohol, drugs, pron — these also become gods to people.

[BipolarBob]

The biggest house, the newest car, the highest paying job, addictions to alcohol, drugs, pron — these also become gods to people.

Why did you include pron? People need pron. It is vital to a persons . . . wait a minute, what is pron?

[johngrace]

What it really comes down to in an essence of thought. This protest declares God can make a law but not obey it. Just amazing.

He is above even his own laws. Sorry that does not make sense. I do not care whatever theology "words" you come up with in a discussion. I have read this old hat argument. God is using this as a visual aid for believers in these scriptures. Even God knew about " A picture/image speaks a thousand words. Also in any language too. When people from other languages see it they can talk in the own language about it. This is one of many reasons the church uses images.

It is an inanimate object. He put it there for honor at times. So if you have an image of a wedding to honor you are just as guilty too according to the absolutely nooooo images crowd.

I walk into some churches with stained glass windows with biblical stories. The baptism of Christ, His birth and all the Passion of Christ. I know in the Holy Spirit within me confirming the beauty of it as I honor God.

In my book with accurate thinking you would be doing idolatry by sacrificing to the image. I have a picture of my mother. I honor her not worship her like the Good book also says "Honor your Mother or Father."

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

[Salvation]

Thanks for the corrections...Fingers move too quickly sometime.

porn

I think you realized what I meant.

Have a blessed Sunday — and let me know when the Cross is removed (because this thread) from your church.

[BipolarBob]

I think you realized what I meant.

Well at first I didn't and about the time I hit post I thought you could've meant pornography. a little too late

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***I doubt Sunday keeping is the Mark ****

I don’t believe this is official SDA doctrine, but some of the independent SDA missionaries used to preach it many years ago.

[BipolarBob]

I don’t believe this is official SDA doctrine

I have no idea as I broke from them many years ago. My reading of the Bible is the Mark will be an enforced sign of obedience. The hand or forehead would be symbolic of action (hand) and the forehead would be symbolic of how you think. In other words people will be forced to change how they think and what they do in a way contrary to Gods ways. You see evidence of that now with television. We are being told to be "tolerant" of homosexuality (Real meaning is acceptance). The anti "Stand your Ground" crowd and "guns are evil" that are coming out now are trying to change how people feel about self defense of their home and family. The division of mans law and Gods Law should always be examined to see if Caesar is claiming that which is Gods alone to direct.

[Former Fetus]

The line between veneration of what a statue represents, and worship of the statue is a very thin line

Very thin indeed! That's why I have problems with kneeling in front of a statue, lighting candles and praying. I used to do all these things growing up Catholic in Spain. I don't do it any longer.

Some here are arguing that veneration has nothing to do with "trust is to be reposed in images" to use the RCC's words.

Have you ever put an image of St. Christopher in your car, to keep you safe? My parents would not start the car without such an image.

Have you ever knelt in front of a statue of St. Anthony to ask for help finding something important you misplaced? A few years ago I was teaching at a Catholic HS here, in the US, when the chemistry tests the students had taken earlier that day misteriously "disappeared" from my desk. The headmistress wanted me to go to the chapel and pray in front of a statue of St. Anthony, asking him for help finding the papers.

Growing up in Spain I went to quite a few villages when they were taking the statue of the patron saint in procession, asking him or her to send rain. A few times they were asking for intercession, most times they were asking for the saint to provide the rain.

I could keep on going, but you get the idea!