Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc

That curious, mystifying space between Quix's ears | 9 MAR 2012 | Quix

[Quix]

I'm a bit loathe to wade into such again. However, The Lord HAS brought to my awareness a couple of things this past week that kind of goad me into posting. I'm MORE loathe to allow Holy Spirit to go unrepresented on such scores on FR after the recent thrashing His works received on that other locked thread.

I'm NOT interested in going around and around with the more irrationally and unBiblically harsh posters on that other thread. They will likely arrive and rant as they did on that thread. I may or may not respond with pics and gifs. I don't plan to engage them with yet more futile words.

And, the chronically, habitually, generally carpy naysayers can just go suck rock candy or lolly pops. Their reaping is already scheduled. If they want to earn more of such from The Lord, that's their business.

I know the authenticity of Holy Spirit's gifts and workings in my own life. I have to be responsible to His interactions with me and leadings of me in my own life. And, as I feel led, to speak up in behalf of His gifts in this era.

I don't feel responsible to try and bore a hole and pour it in. And, I am not inclined to get two bricks and try and make the camel drink water. Doesn't work with women anyway.

That said . . .

I learned this week that the wife of a close relative of mine was miraculously healed in a Kenneth Copeland service. She had a serious case of . . . [serious]. . . cancer in advanced stages and was not expected to live. Her blood count was 5 but I don't know what aspect of her blood count was 5. Maybe I'll find out and post it later.

My relative had escorted her to the front row where she sat, unable to stand and looking like 'death warmed over' in extreme weakness.

Kenneth instructed his wife Gloria to go down and lay hands on her. She was immediately and totally healed. She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.

As I understand it, the medical verification documentation is quite conclusive. She may even publish it all in her own narrative in due course. I'm not inclined to give more info for my privacy.

I think I learned that this last Tuesday evening.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Last Wednesday evening at church, Pastor related the following narrative.

She had been on a mission trip to Guatemala. In one of their gatherings in one of the poorest churches--a ramshackle tin building affair . . . a local church member began to give a message in tongues. This person had never learned English at all.

The woman spoke quite clear English and told of how God was going to give them a newer larger building much better for their church.

The woman had no idea what she had said. When Pastor's team told her what she'd said, she broke down almost in convulsions for joy and in humility over the Lord using her so to bring such a longed for message to her congregation. As I understand it, that did then transpire exactly as she'd declared in a language she did not know.

On the same mission trip, they went to a very wealthy church led by a Pastor who lived in a wealthy home with marble walls etc. Pastor visited the man's opulent home.

Holy Spirit spoke to Pastor and told her that the man was having an affair with his secretary and that Pastor must confront him and call him to repentance. Pastor has a very powerful prophetic gifting though is not per se a prophet.

Pastor told their local tour guide who was in personal relationship with all the pastors of the churches they visited--including this wealthy one. She replied to Pastor: "You'd better be right!"

Pastor confronted him and he admitted it. He did not repent but justified it with sleezey rationalizing that he was 'supposed to love the sheep.'

I felt when Pastor related the story that the man has since, rather soon after that, died but I haven't verified that even with Pastor. She may not know.

[fishtank]

I was trying be diplomatic.

IMO, I’m with the Word of God on Copeland.

He’s a false teacher, a deceiver and a fraud.

[guitarplayer1953]

"For whatever reason, God still sees fit to use him."

I have herd stories that during the 50's healing revival that men would fight over how would speak first or who would speak last, and in all the fist fights and mayhem God still chose to heal during the services.

[count-your-change]

Impressing you was not the goal. Paul's comments to the Corinthians show that the gift of speaking in tongues was of a far lessor nature than prophesying or that of Christian love above all and that speaking in tongues was one of those gifts that was to pass away.

So it's neither my nor your sensibilities that is salient but what Scripture says. Speaking in tongues is of no importance to the mature Christian church.

[Lx]

I've read it, perhaps you need to read it again.

Using fonts that make it hard to fathom what you're writing is useless. I'm not interested enough to cut and paste your fonts into a text editor so I can read it. Trust me, your choice of font will have zero effect on, "those with irrational, unBiblical & obnoxious attitudes among my readers." While I certainly would support anything that brings the Word towards unbelievers, using a cursive font, is not one of them.

[Jmouse007]

Just because your Pastor’s junky assertions are more to your sensibilities and comfort zones doesn’t make them more right than Kenneth’s."

Having taught Biblical Studies, Systematic Theology and Pastoral Studies on the graduate and undergraduate level for many years, I am not basing my opinion of Copland on my "pastor’s junky assertions" or my "sensibilities and comfort zones". Having examined Copland and his heretical teachings in light of the Word of God and sound Christian doctrine, I stand by my conclusions... Kenneth Copland is a heretic and false teacher.

As for "God still seeing fit to use him", there is nothing to indicate that Almighty God is using him. God's Word is clear; Satan has his own "Servants of righteousness" and Kenneth Copland fits the description found in 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 to a tee:

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."

[reaganaut]

Having spent years studying and teaching the Bible, theology, and apologetics both formally and informally and having worked in ministry specializing in countering heresies, I am siding in with Jmouse and fishtank on this one.

Copeland is a heretic.

Regarding speaking in tongues, I am rather ambivalent about it. The Bible is not clear what it is specifically (other languages or nonsense) and I have seen the ‘gift’ abused in many churches, misused as proof of salvation, and also ‘appear’ without interpretation (which is unbiblical).

It is not something I seek after and if God sees fit to give it to me than that is His doing, not mine. I do caution those I work with in getting directly involved in churches that emphasize tongues because of the misuse I have seen over the years.

[Kandy Atz]

He’s a false teacher, a deceiver and a fraud.

Its interesting that Jesus received almost the same reception from the Jewish leaders, "theologians" and Experts in the Law and he was the Son of God!

But when the Pharisees heard about the miracle, they said, "No wonder he can cast out demons. He gets his power from Satan, the prince of demons." Matthew 12:24

Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” John 9:16

Among the crowds there was widespread whispering about him. Some said, "He is a good man." Others replied, "No, he deceives the people." John 7:12

Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue ruler said to the people, "There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath." Luke 13:4

When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is... Luke 7:39

The Jewish leaders replied, "By our law he ought to die because he called himself the Son of God." John 19:7

And the same type of behavior targeted the early Church:

So they called the apostles back in and commanded them never again to speak or teach in the name of Jesus. Acts 4:18 -- Good thing John & Peter listened to God and not the religious leaders.

I would suggest you leave the judgement to God. Or take the wise words of Gamaliel to heart:

Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men...Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." - Acts 5:35, 38-39

And if that is not enough, consider Jesus' words to Paul when he asked him why he was persecuting HIM. Jesus takes attacks against the Body of Christ, HIS body personally.

I don't care if you like, follow or ever support Kenneth Copeland. But he is a man of God, a faithful teacher of the Word, and a child of God. And as a Christian, which I assume you are, he at least deserves the same love God has for you.

[Quix]

INDEED.

Personally,

I think God TENDS to get MORE GLORY

when He uses such crack-potted vessels.

And folks who think of themselves as squeaky clean tend to be arrogant and worse in their flaws . . . it’s just that their flaws and sins are covered over with thicker white-wash.

[Quix]

. . . tongues . . . were to cease so in and of themselves they would not later serve as evidence of the operation of God's spirit.

More brazen assumption.

WHEN does I Cor 13 indicate that time is to be? NOT 70AD!

Partial Knowledge has not ceased! Neither has tongues . . . except for those unwilling to believe the Bible and obey it.

[Quix]

What if what you are saying is offensive to God?

.

In view of the Scriptures:

I Cor 12 KJV:

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these workes that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.

I COR 14:
15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the Spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1.Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

2.Romans 8:27

And He that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

.

Soooooooo how is it that Holy Spirit praying the perfect prayer about what's in the heart and mind of the person concerned would offend God The Father or The Son?

PLEASE EXPLAIN to all of us how it is that

He {Holy Spirit} that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Could possibly OFFEND GOD The Father, or God The Son?

Of course, Biblical wisdom and humility might just note that the question was absurd to begin with.

[reaganaut]

Did you skip over the part that we are to expose false teachers?

If his teaching does not align with the Word (and quite a bit of it has not over the years), then he must be exposed, corrected and counseled.

That isn’t judgement, that is protecting the flock from wolves in sheeps clothing.

The more I have seen of Copeland, the less biblical his teachings are.

[Quix]

Those speaking in tongues understood what they were saying

Perhaps you tore these verses out of your Bible:

I Cor 14:
2For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, AND I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, AND I will sing with the understanding also.

18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

I Cor 14: 39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid NOT to speak with tongues.

.

Now, now. It's not nice to gnash one's teeth AT SCRIPTURE.

[Quix]

I’ve walked away from many a service where pride, the flesh, absurdities, stupidity abounded . . .

yet God moved.

Many folks of good heart do stupid things because they don’t know better or aren’t paying attention to their own craziness.

King David was a worst sort of scoundral when he murdered Bathsheba’s husband etc. Yet he was STILL a man after God’s own heart.

There’s plenty of mysteries.

I just choose to take God at His Word and do my best, by His grace to walk it out and into the fabric of my life. He seems to bless that a lot more than not.

[Kandy Atz]

I have read a majority of his books and compared them with the Word. I have heard and read more unbelief and false teaching while sitting in the pews of mainline churches, and even on this forum, than I have in his work.

I have also read much of the “heresy hunters” work that contorts and misquotes him with abandon. And frankly, I am shocked that there are “ministries” who feel “called” to do nothing to edify the Body, instead they only attack ministers and ministries. I wonder who called them, and you, to this great task?

God does not need help to expose heretics and false prophets. Of that, I am quite certain.

[Quix]

Speaking in tongues is of no importance to the mature Christian church.

I guess you and Jimmy Carter agree that The Apostle Paul didn't know what he was talking about and you know more about Spiritual truths than Paul did.

Perhaps if you glue the Scriptures below that you seem to have torn out, God will forgive your tearing them out of the Bible.

Obviously, Paul was wrong, per your sensibilities, when Pauls wrote IN SCRIPTURE:

I Cor 12:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

I Cor 12:28:
28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues I Cor 14:
2For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

.

{OH DEAR! what childishness! . . . evidently--according to count-your-change}

I Cor 14:
4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; . . .

.

{OH DEAR! Can't have that! What childishness to have Holy Spirit edifying one's self while praying in tongues! Off with their heads for being sooooooo childish! Harumph!}

I Cor 14: 15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

.

{OH DEAR! Tear ALL Paul's letters out of the New Testament. He was OBVIOUSLY tooooo childish and immature to have written Scripture! /sarc}

18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

.

{OH DEAR! MORE evidence--Tear ALL Paul's letters out of the New Testament. He was OBVIOUSLY tooooo childish and immature to have written Scripture! /sarc}

39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

.

{OH DEAR! MORE evidence--Clearly Paul was simply toooo childish to know a living thing about Christianity! Tear ALL Paul's letters out of the New Testament. He was OBVIOUSLY tooooo childish and immature to have written Scripture! /sarc}

[Quix]

Welllllllll

Personally, I don’t care how many degrees nor how many awards nor how many decades of teaching are under your belt at how lofty a Univ of Theology.

Kenneth Copeland asserts that

Jesus is the Christ;

That Jesus came in the flesh;

Was crucified for our sins;

Rose the third day etc. etc. etc.

SCRIPTURE says that no one can assert such things by other than Holy Spirit.

He prays in a Biblical way and sees Biblical results.

And my close relative’s wife is alive due to Kenneth’s ministry.

Go ahead and pile your perspective a mile high.

My close relative won’t care a flip. Like the blind man who saw—my relative has a wife still . . . and his kids and grand kids have a mother and grandmother still.

Your arguments are merely arguments . . . and along-side of life vs death . . . more than a bit absurdly looking, as well.

However, by all means, take your gilded buckets of rocks with you to Heaven. God may be very impressed with their gilding and overlook them.

/sarc

[Quix]

I hope this is not true for you.

Most folks I've seen with that

It is not something I seek after and if God sees fit to give it to me than that is His doing, not mine.

sort of stance . . . sort of are saying to God

OK, Big Daddy, If you want to unfold my arms, open my heart, mind and spirit with a crowbar and hit me over the head with it--I'll tolerate it.

God Holy Spirit is NOT about to do things that way. He's far too much of a Gentleman.

Tongues like everything else in life and Christianity are also a matter of FAITH: WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH, IS SIN.

AS The Lord walked me through some years ago . . . after the electric goosebumps leave; the anointed aura of electricity leave . . . God asked me how I'd become Saved through Christ's Blood?

Of course, by FAITH.

So, could I have FAITH that Holy Spirit was putting HIS MEANING to whatever sounds I made, or not?

By His Grace, I could. I haven't looked back.

[Quix]

Anointedly put.

PRAISE GOD for your Faithfulness to His Word; His priorities; His kids.

[Quix]

Oh, I’m sure the Religious rulers 2,000 felt the same way and said the same things.

And, there is a time to do that.

Sounds to me like your criteria as applied to Kennety are more than a little too narrow and prissy . . . with too few mirrors.

[Quix]

I have read a majority of his books and compared them with the Word. I have heard and read more unbelief and false teaching while sitting in the pews of mainline churches, and even on this forum, than I have in his work.

I have also read much of the “heresy hunters” work that contorts and misquotes him with abandon. And frankly, I am shocked that there are “ministries” who feel “called” to do nothing to edify the Body, instead they only attack ministers and ministries. I wonder who called them, and you, to this great task?

God does not need help to expose heretics and false prophets. Of that, I am quite certain.

I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY. I've found his stuff the same.

And, I've made a similar assessment of the heresy hunters. Their arrogance and prissiness are nauseating and stink to low hell.