Posted on 03/01/2012 10:57:22 AM PST by Colofornian
That is what is contained in the 2 Nephi 26-30, the section of the Book of Mormon that will be studied this Sunday in the LDS Church. This critique is set in the context of its supposed prophecy of Joseph Smith finding and translating the Book of Mormon.
These chapters contain quite a few condemnations of Christian churches. One that is emphasized and the one that I will be focusing on is its condemnation of the position held today by millions of Christians that the Bible alone is God’s revealed Word. Following are a couple of quotes from these chapters in the Book of Mormon that give a flavor for its position.
2 Nephi 28:29: Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!
2 Nephi 29: 3-6 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible. But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles? O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people. Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
As I said, that is just one of numerous condemnations of Christians and Christian churches in those chapters. As I reread those chapters this week, the thought that kept coming to mind was why would any Mormon today want to try to identify themselves, in any way, with the Christian church? These chapters draw a bold and distinct line between Mormonism and Christian churches. In fact, these chapters connect the actions and beliefs of Christian churches with Satan himself! That is even brought out in the conclusion of the teacher’s guide for this lesson. Its conclusion: “Explain that through studying the Book of Mormon and living the gospel, we will gain the power to avoid Satan’s deceptive illusions and be guided as we strive to stay on the strait and narrow path.”
In his book, Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie, faithfully reflects the flavor of these chapters from 2 Nephi in his definition of Christendom. “The term also applies to the whole body of supposed Christian believers; as now constituted this body is properly termed apostate Christendom.” Again, I ask, why would any Mormon want to, in any way, identify themselves with apostates?
One step at a time.
I need to have pgyanke’s agreement to the definition.
Thank you. BEST POST OF THE YEAR !!!
A lack of enthusiasm for Romney may enable Obama to reprise his 2008 victory by winning VA, NC, and FL. However, political analyst Michael Barone notes that Romney has shown strength among affluent suburbanites that could reprise pre-1992 strength in the ring counties around the Northern metro areas. Fear of higher taxes and socialized medicine would outweigh the social issues that drove many middle income suburbanites in the Northeast and Midwest away from the GOP in the 1990s and 2000s.
You declared it "decidedly Biblical" without that agreement - but I do hope pgyanke obliges with a timely agreement (or counterproposal) so we can see this alleged biblical support.
Bush the Elder won in 1988 by pretending to be a conservative - does that count?
“but I do hope pgyanke obliges with a timely agreement (or counterproposal) so we can see this alleged biblical support.”
Indeed.
pgyanke, do you agree that that is an acceptable definition of Sola Scriptura?
There is an elephant in the living room that you are ignoring. The Christian Right can stay home or just not vote for President. To suggest that's it just Obama or Romney is a false dilemma.
Dubya was definitely the choice of conservatives in 2000. Although he disappointed conservatives on economic issues, he was always there with conservatives on social issues.
Sure it does.
Given that Romney has only won 2 primary races outside of his hometurf...that he's not a viable candidate...especially after the MSM & Obama would get done w/him...making the race, in part, a referendum vs. racism... Romney will lose no matter what.
The GOP right now has a lock on only 29% of registered voters. Even if Romney got all 29% (or for every GOP vote lost to 3rd party or whatever...regained an Ind. or Dem vote), that's all he's gonna get...29% of the vote.
Enough GOP voters would vote third party (including me and all I could influence to do the same)
Hey, if you're going to toss away your vote, at least keep your conscience by not voting for a pro-abortion, socialist lite, Obama lite "god in embryo" named Mitt...I mean, hey, if I wanted to vote for someone more liberal than the Dems of the 1960s, I would have joined the Dems' party...
If you were a gambler & you put your $ on the candidate who got 29% (vs. a third party guy)...guess what, you wasted your $ no matter what! Doesn't matter if the 29% guy gets closer than a third party guy...I'm not going to let the GOP forever turn the party into a Dem lite party.
'Cause if they do...that 29% of all registered voters will soon be 20% of all registered voters...and it wouldn't be long before it became as extinct as the Whig party...The GOP rose on the ashes of the Whigs...a new party, the FREE Republicans could rise on the ashes of the GOP.
Too many FREEPERS are so short-sited they don't see the permanent destruction of the GOP at stake. 'Cause if that happens, you get Dem POTUS candidates even worse than Obama...election after election after election til dooms day...Perhaps, one day, the anti-Christ.
And if the GOP ran a candidate opposite the anti-Christ who was the reincarnation of Hitler, sorry...not gonna vote for a hitler reincarnation just 'cause I allegedly have "no place to go."
I'm flattered that you've waited so long for me to respond. It really wasn't necessary. You are the one holding to Sola Scriptura, surely you could give an adequate defense of your own doctrine without me...?
“The Bible contains all that is necessary to find salvation and to live a life that is pleasing to God.”
It's probably for the best that you waited, though. I can see by your definition that it could become the focus of the debate first. So let's clear that up... Your definition isn't one that I've read before on the subject. I don't usually see the word "find" in front of salvation, for one thing. I also don't remember Sola Scriptura adherents being all that concerned about pleasing God... after all, our works are as "dirty rags", aren't they? Lastly, I don't see any mention of authority... and that is the biggest issue of all, really.
So I'll ask a question of you to clear these things up... do you hold that Scripture is the only authority and that it alone is all Truth regarding salvation?
If not, please clarify. If so, please tell me where you find that in the Bible.
Isaiah 5:
25 Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
26 ¶And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:
27 None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:
The Christian Right vote has nowhere to go but Romney if he wins the GOP nomination for President.
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Wrong. We can leave the GOP and make them go the way of the whigs. It is time the GOP dies.
The Christian Right vote has nowhere to go but Romney if he wins the GOP nomination for President.
- - - -
Wrong. We can leave the GOP and make them go the way of the whigs. It is time the GOP dies.
***************
Time and past time. The GOP is part and parcel with the leftward drive since the end of WWII.
Sorry, I don’t think Christ agrees with your condemnation of Christians. ‘Hiss’ appears to be an archaic usage in your selected quote. http://bible.cc/isaiah/5-26.htm
Nice try, deceiver.
The King James Version of the Holy Bible is hardly archaic. Sure there are modern translations, but it is widely used and accepted by millions of Christians of many denominations worldwide.
Here’s another. Spin is as you will, or feel free to continue to shoot the messenger, but hiss is simply not as you say it is.
Zechariah 10:
8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.
9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again.
So I went back and looked at your list of different translations, and the following specially use the word “hiss.” Only some very modern translations use “whistle”.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
American King James Version
American Standard Version
Darby Bible Translation
English Revised Version
Webster’s Bible Translation
Young’s Literal Translation
I know you’re really trying to tie Mormons into using sort of twisted serpent reference, but it’s not working.
But feel free to try that with Moses. He used a serpent on a stick to represent salvation. I’m sure he would be pleased with your blanket approach.
“It’s probably for the best that you waited, though. I can see by your definition that it could become the focus of the debate first. So let’s clear that up... Your definition isn’t one that I’ve read before on the subject. I don’t usually see the word “find” in front of salvation, for one thing. I also don’t remember Sola Scriptura adherents being all that concerned about pleasing God... after all, our works are as “dirty rags”, aren’t they? Lastly, I don’t see any mention of authority... and that is the biggest issue of all, really.”
Wikipedia’s description of Sola Scriptura:
“Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, “by scripture alone”) is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness.”
My definition:
“The Bible contains all that is necessary to find salvation and to live a life that is pleasing to God.”
I think, though differently worded, they are almost exactly the same.
++++++++++++++++
“So I’ll ask a question of you to clear these things up... do you hold that Scripture is the only authority and that it alone is all Truth regarding salvation? If not, please clarify. If so, please tell me where you find that in the Bible.”
These issues, to my mind, fall outside of the scope of this argument. The Sola Scriptura argument is that “the Bible contains everything that one needs to know in order to obtain salvation and to live a Christian life.”
Now for the Biblical proof...
2 Timothy 3: 15-17
“and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Statement: “The Bible contains all that is necessary to find salvation”
Proof: “the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation
+++
Statement: “...and to live a life that is pleasing to God.”
Proof: “All Scripture is ... profitable for ... instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work
Based on the above, Sola Scriptura is decidedly Biblical.
If we compare the track record of the post-World War II Democrats (Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter, Clinton, Obama) with the post-World War II Republicans (Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush I, Bush II), the Democrat grade would be F+ only because Congressional conservatives placed some domestic spending restraints on Truman and Clinton, and the Republicans a C-. (Excluding Reagan, it would be a D-.)
So why bother and not stay home, write-in Herman Cain, or vote for the Libertarian or Constitution candidate? One word: Obama. He is a "red diaper" baby with plenty of ties to Communists, their Muslim allies, and the Chicago Outfit. (BTW, I don't think Breitbart's death was the result of natural causes, nor the suspicious package sent to Limbaugh's Florida home. These tactics smell of the descendants of Al Capone.)
It may be said that voting for someone who will head toward the precipice at 30 mph is little different than one who will drive at 60 mph. However, the slower driver will buy more time. Time can be our ally because events beyond the control of the ruling elites can change the game. Romney or Santorum will at least slow down economic collapse by gutting Obamacare and being more pro-energy than the current regime. Under current circumstances, this is the best we can do.
2 Tim. 3:14 - Protestants usually use 2 Tim. 3:16-17 to prove that the Bible is the sole authority of God’s word. But examining these texts disproves their claim. Here, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition right before the Protestants’ often quoted verse 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Thus, there is an appeal to tradition before there is an appeal to the Scriptures, and Protestants generally ignore this fact.
2 Tim. 3:15 - Paul then appeals to the sacred writings of Scripture referring to the Old Testament Scriptures with which Timothy was raised (not the New Testament which was not even compiled at the time of Paul’s teaching). This verse also proves that one can come to faith in Jesus Christ without the New Testament.
2 Tim. 3:16 - this verse says that Scripture is “profitable” for every good work, but not exclusive. The word “profitable” is “ophelimos” in Greek. “Ophelimos” only means useful, which underscores that Scripture is not mandatory or exclusive. Protestants unbiblically argue that profitable means exclusive.
2 Tim. 3:16 - further, the verse “all Scripture” uses the words “pasa graphe” which actually means every (not all) Scripture. This means every passage of Scripture is useful. Thus, the erroneous Protestant reading of “pasa graphe” would mean every single passage of Scripture is exclusive. This would mean Christians could not only use “sola Matthew,” or “sola Mark,” but could rely on one single verse from a Gospel as the exclusive authority of God’s word. This, of course, is not true and even Protestants would agree. Also, “pasa graphe” cannot mean “all of Scripture” because there was no New Testament canon to which Paul could have been referring, unless Protestants argue that the New Testament is not being included by Paul.
2 Tim. 3:16 - also, these inspired Old Testament Scriptures Paul is referring to included the deuterocanonical books which the Protestants removed from the Bible 1,500 years later.
2 Tim. 3:17 - Paul’s reference to the “man of God” who may be complete refers to a clergyman, not a layman. It is an instruction to a bishop of the Church. So, although Protestants use it to prove their case, the passage is not even relevant to most of the faithful.
2 Tim. 3:17 - further, Paul’s use of the word “complete” for every good work is “artios” which simply means the clergy is “suitable” or “fit.” Also, artios does not describe the Scriptures, it describes the clergyman. So, Protestants cannot use this verse to argue the Scriptures are complete.
James 1:4 - steadfastness also makes a man “perfect (teleioi) and complete (holoklepoi), lacking nothing.” This verse is important because “teleioi”and “holoklepoi” are much stronger words than “artios,” but Protestants do not argue that steadfastness is all one needs to be a Christian.
Titus 3:8 - good deeds are also “profitable” to men. For Protestants especially, profitable cannot mean “exclusive” here.
2 Tim 2:21- purity is also profitable for “any good work” (”pan ergon agathon”). This wording is the same as 2 Tim. 3:17, which shows that the Scriptures are not exclusive, and that other things (good deeds and purity) are also profitable to men.
Col. 4:12 - prayer also makes men “fully assured.” No where does Scripture say the Christian faith is based solely on a book.
2 Tim. 3:16-17 - Finally, if these verses really mean that Paul was teaching sola Scriptura to the early Church, then why in 1 Thess. 2:13 does Paul teach that he is giving Revelation from God orally? Either Paul is contradicting his own teaching on sola Scriptura, or Paul was not teaching sola Scriptura in 2 Tim. 3:16-17. This is a critical point which Protestants cannot reconcile with their sola Scriptura position.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html#scripture-II
Well said! Another good reference (among others) to rebut this idea of closed scripture is what God told Daniel after He gave him revelation, which he wrote. He then was commanded to seal it up until the end times. We have yet to receive that holy writ. It will happen.
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Personally, I think many people will be surprised how much God has interacted with his prophets throughout history, when all things are revealed... of which the bible only really represents a single tribe of Israel.
I’m staying tuned, more to come!
My definition: “The Bible contains all that is necessary to find salvation and to live a life that is pleasing to God.”
I think, though differently worded, they are almost exactly the same.
Funny, though... your definition differs in exactly the ways I noted.
These issues, to my mind, fall outside of the scope of this argument. The Sola Scriptura argument is that “the Bible contains everything that one needs to know in order to obtain salvation and to live a Christian life.”
If you were just going to swat my suggestions aside, why did you wait for my response?
Now, let's talk about what you posted from Scripture.
JustSayNoToNannies already posted some excellent Scripture refutations for the specific verses you cited. So I'll let those stand. Rather, I want to have a logical discussion with you. In Matt 16:18, Jesus said He would build His Church. If the underpinnings of this Church was that everyone must have a Bible in his hands to be complete for salvation... there was no Church until we got the printing press 1,500 years later. It would be very hard to argue that Christ built that church... it would be more closely built by Gutenberg.
Christ also promised in John 14:26 that the Father would send the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) to teach all things. We recognize the voice of the Holy Spirit in the Magisterium of the Church where we have learned an unfolding revelation which has deepened our understanding of Scripture, not contradicted it. The Sola Scriptura viewpoint is that only the Apostles were given this help in preparing Scripture for the rest of humanity to read. Since then, the Holy Spirit has not taught all things but has only been saying "read the Book." What's ironic is that much of the Protestant world has come to embrace the doctrine of the "rapture" which is a doctrine only taught since the 17th Century. Apparently, new teachings and revelations are allowed... as long as they don't come from the Catholic Church. The problem is, this doctrine is contradicted in Scripture whereas no doctrine of the Catholic Church is. Whereas Christ prayed that we would all be one (John 17:21), private revelation has brought disunity and division in the Protestant world with each congregation holding to their own narrow interpretations.
Logically, the Epistles were written to correct what was flagging in the early Church. Left to their own devices without the correction, the Church would have been left in disunity and disarray. The Epistles point to the authority of the Church to teach the Scriptures and correct abuses. If we are to follow Scripture alone, we need only follow the methods of the Gidians and leave a Bible where all can find it. But we don't do that. In addition to a Bible, one must teach and preach... that alone blows Sola Scriptura out of the water.
If the Bible is all we need, then Christ should have left us a cypher. If all the Ethiopian Eunuch needed was a Bible, then why did he need St Philip in Acts 8:26-40? The answer is because God gave us men to act as teachers and priests in carrying on His work of salvation. Left to our own devices, we distort Scripture in our lack of understanding to our own destruction (2 Peter 3:16). If the Bible is all we need, I thank God that He also gave us the Church to teach and understand it. Interpreting Scripture is not a matter of one's own private revelation (2 Peter 1:20).
As noted by our other FRiend, St Paul never said he brought Scripture for the people to memorize. He brought traditions oral and written (2 Thess 2:15). This is because there was no widely used New Testament Scripture when he came. What he brought was his own testimony. In fact, in 1 Cor 5:9-11, St Paul references another of his letters that is equally authoritative... but we don't have that letter... this should be a huge glaring hole for a Sola Scriptura viewpoint. In 1 Thess 3:10, St Paul says that he wants to see them face to face because his letter is not enough for their instruction.
Sometimes St Paul's testimony actually relied on extra scriptural sources. When he spoke to the Athenians (Acts 17:28), he referenced their altar to "the unknown god" (an allusion to a tradition of theirs by which they were delivered from a deadly plague) to help them come to know that God. Rarely did St Paul appeal to Scripture and rarely did he tell the people to be true to anything but the Traditions he brought (Phil 4:9).
In short, as told by the Apostles themselves, they brought the Word of God, Jesus... not just the Word of God written. This Jesus spent 40 days from His Resurrection to His Ascension with His Apostles--with very little said in the Bible. What was He doing, playing the Wii? No, He was building His Church and instructing His Apostles. Just as John 20:30 and John 21:25 tell us, there are many more things that Jesus did that are not written down. The private instruction Christ gave the Apostles is the Deposit of Faith given to them which is the Tradition (Big T) brought by them to the world and still preserved by the Catholic Church today. The very fact that the Bible Itself tells you it is not all-inclusive should tell you there is no such thing as Sola Scriptura.
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