It May Look Good on Paper [Mormonism]

I am not Mormon. Nevertheless, I am troubled by anyone questioning anyone else’s faith. It is, after all, FAITH. I certainly recognize that what I believe, I believe by faith. I cannot prove it (if I could, I would). Mormons cannot prove it. No religion can. To question what others believe only invites a response in kind.

All of that said, I believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Savior of the World (for those who will accept Him). And while I don’t have proof, among the best evidence of Christ’s divinity was His willingness to die when He could have avoided death by simply denying His divinity. Many of His apostles, who witnessed His resurrected person, suffered hideous deaths that they could have avoided by renouncing their faith. Had Christ not risen from the dead and appeared to them over many days, I cannot believe they would have willingly suffered as they did.

I’ll disagree with what the Mormons believe on some fronts, but I see no right or good in denying them their faith.

“We may have disagreements with Mormons about theology and doctrine but their devotion to family and forsaking much of the world’s temptations for greater family time is not faked and should be admired, not criticized.”

I agree. Our family adheres to a Christian lifestyle that sometimes appears similar to the Mormons. We home-school K-12, there’s no birth control or abortion (I’m expecting baby #4), I stay at home and hubby works, and there’s not a lot of TV allowed because even the commercials are a bad influence on children. I am sure I’d be condemned all over the place by the NYT for not being some urban skank who sleeps with everyone...but their condemnation is to me the highest form of praise.

WHAT ‘sucessful lifestyle’??!?

Mormons are under a lot of pressure to show the world (and other Mormons) that they live the perfect sucessful life. Behind closed doors is another matter entirely.

Mormons not only lie to outsiders, they lie to themselves as well. It is the only way they can maintain their ‘testimony’ of Mormonism.

Been there, done that.

i don’t see you telling people to be silent about the facts on any other religion...just this one

and frankly, i have no idea if you’re really a mormon or not...the first thing a mormon on fr does is say he’s not mormon

if there’s an advantage in a mormon lying about his faith, he is COMMANDED by lds doctrine, to lie...

when i was in the church, they explained that if someone questioned you on a matter that put the church in a bad light, you were instructed to lie, because if the church was negatively represented, it could prevent prospective converts from becoming lds, and it was a lesser sin to lie than to let a convert be lost to the church...

i corroborate...”Lying for the Lord”, source: MormonWiki

Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith’s denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by “anti-Mormons” and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley’s dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism’s history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult. “Lying for the lord” is part of Mormonism’s larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators.

(source: mormonwiki.org)

It isn’t bigotry, it is the absolute truth, and more.

Mormonism is not at all what it appears to be.

Read some of the posts here: www.exmormon.org

or listen to the stories of ex-Mormons on here. The article is correct.

Mormons say worse about the Catholics every single day. The only group they hate more are Evangelicals (which they call ‘reborns’ or ‘gracers’).

but their devotion to family and forsaking much of the world’s temptations for greater family time is not faked and should be admired, not criticized.

- - - -
Actually it IS faked, and/or blackmailed spiritually.

Mormonism is NOT at all what it appears to be. Sadly, most people only find out once they bought into it.

“WHAT ‘sucessful lifestyle’??!?”

Compared to the kinds of lifestyle the NYT approves of I’d say the majority of Mormons are vastly successful at raising families. They are NOT perfect and I know plenty of ex-Mormons in our church and would NEVER advise anyone to become a Mormon. That said, compare them to what the NYT approves of and the Mormons are, by far, successful.

It May Look Good on Paper [Mormonism]

True dat!!

Only a Hateful BIGOT would even THINK about posting such factual, non-faith building things!

--MormonDude('course we got spots! We're HUMAN; just like you!)

While I am not a Mormon and do not wish to be, the NYT criticizing them for their successful lifestyle is kind of empty when you look at the kind of sick, perverted, and demented lifestyles the NYT actually approves of.

Just wait until they come after our THEOLOGY!!

--MormonDupe(It won't be pretty!)

This article from the New York Times is disgusting.

It is bigotry.

Too bad you could NOT claim it to be UNTRUE!

When the NYSlimes does the same sort of article on the religion of peace then I will think about paying some attention to them.

We all KNOW that MORMONism is the TRUE Religion of Peace!

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses

, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

Just to be clear, I think their theology is nuts - right up there with Scientology - but I know what I see and when I see Mormon families I almost uniformly see polite, well-behaved, and literate children and that says a lot for them at least in that regard.

I’m not a Mormon but I wonder how ~~Catholics~~ ...both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon'... would like it if Mormons started talking about the “Magic Bread.”

--MormonDude(fixed)

Subject: Do many TBMs [Mormons] love the notion of a "forever family" more than they love the people in their real family? Date: Sep 26 21:30 2003 Author: Perry Noid -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am increasingly troubled by the way that TBMs treat doubting members of their real families--especially the way they treat doubting spouses who are otherwise still loyal mates and good people, but just have for good reason lost faith in the organization known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormons talk about the importance of families incessantly. This emphasis on "family values" is really a big draw to a lot of potential converts who are looking for a nice, wholesome community of faith that will help their individual families to develop closer and more loving relationships. (The attraction to the "family values" touted by the Church is often probably more decisive than the Book of Mormon or any specific doctrines of the Church.) However, there is a dark, perverse aspect of Mormon family values, specifically in the way that the Church twists the family concept to promote blind loyalty to the Church above all else. Just as a politician may repeat the mantra "it's for the children" as a misleading label to promote the politician's own selfish interests with little regard for the welfare of real children, the Church uses it's concept of Forever Families? as a misleading label to promote the interests of the Church at the expense of the bonds of love and loyalty between individual members of real families. Perhaps the most pernicious aspect of Mormon "family values" is the way that the Church exploits the notion of eternal families ("Forever Families"). In Mormonism you are required to pass a worthiness test to become a member of a Forever Family?. And loyalty to the Church is the essence of the worthiness test. This is conditional love. This means that Mormon Forever Families? are not based on bonds of affection for particular individuals. They are based on the family as an administrative unit of the Church. Forever Families? consist of (1) a Father who is certified as a loyal member of the Church, (2) a mother who is certified as a loyal member of the Church, and (3) the kids who must prove their loyalty as adults in order to remain qualified members of the Forever Family?. The individuals who are assigned to particular roles in the Forever Family? are interchangeable parts. In a way, Mormons treat these different familial roles as Church "callings." If one of the family members proves to be disloyal to the Church, considerable pressure is felt to replace that member with a "worthy" person. Sadly, we see this happening quite often with people who post here on this board. When one spouse begins to doubt the Church, they are jeopardizing their position as a member of the Forever Family?. The TBM spouse will often threaten divorce unless the doubting spouse shapes up and renews the loyalty oath to the Church (which can be taken at a Temple near you, if you are certified by the Church as being worthy to enter.) When TBM spouses do this, they are essentially declaring to the world that they have no particular loyalty or love for the doubting spouse as a unique individual. The TBM spouse is declaring that they love the concept of the Forever Family? and if the doubting spouse is decertified by the Church and labeled as being "unworthy" of being in that Forever Family? unit, they can and will be replaced. When you replace affection for real, flesh and blood, unique individuals, with a love for the abstract concept of a Forever Family?, the way that so many TBM spouses do, as revealed when confronted with a doubting spouse, the family concept becomes meaningless. The family turns out to be little more than an administrative unit of the Church. Something like a Primary Presidency or Elders Quorum. Mormons ought to go one step further and, like the Moonies, let the church assign "worthy" spouses to each other and designate substitute spouses to step in if one of the spouses proves later to have defective loyalty to the Church. Too many TBMs love belonging to a Forever Family? more than they love any of the individuals who are in their real family. Subject: That's exactly it. Great thoughts Perry. Date: Sep 26 22:00 Author: TLC -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Furthermore, the Forever Family? is used as a bargaining tool to extract obedience: "Do what you're told or you're not going to be with your family in the hereafter." To a kid, that's pretty heavy stuff to deal with. To most kids, the idea of being separated from their family is terrifying. I remember as kids traveling though Europe with my folks in what sometimes seemed like insufferably long journeys from one place to another. When us kids would misbehave or get too rowdy, my mom would stop the VW camper by the side of the road and threaten to drag us out and leave us there at the side of the road for the gypsies to come along and grab. It was such a scary thought that it immediately got us to shape up. I felt the same way when I was told that if I didn't obey the commandments, I wouldn't be able to be with my family in the next life. It's emotional blackmail and mormons have elevated it to an artform. All of this talk about families has nothing to do with families. It's about using a vulnerable part of our psyches to control us. Subject: You're right. Emotional blackmail has been elevated to an artform by Mormons. Date: Sep 27 09:21 Author: Perry Noid -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a way, it's like the Church takes the love between family members and holds it hostage to ensure obedience to its demands. Then if that's not sufficient to keep individual members in line, the Church manipulates the TBM members of the family into pulling the trigger and terminating the love that's been held hostage all that time. Your story about your mother's threats to leave you for the gypsies reminds me of similar experiences I had when I was a kid (like threats to take me to the animal shelter and leave me there--of course I was too young at the time to realize that animal shelters wouldn't let frustrated mothers drop off their kids). In hindsight, I think my mother didn't think too much about what she was saying, because to adults the threat was so ludicrous as to be comical. And it did work, temporarily, to quiet me down I guess. But to a literal-minded little kid, such threats can be horrifying. Subject: good point. Every mormon marriage should begin with the question Date: Sep 26 22:02 Author: dialectic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you marrying me or the church?" Subject: Re: who would be asking that question? n/t Date: Sep 26 22:26 Author: dialectic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are three possibilities, but the first is almost not possible- 1. The church would teach this and incorporate it into the temple marriage interview 2. Parents would teach this to their children 3. The couples would ask it of each other I know I'm going to be discussing the issue with my children Subject: A perspective on this from developmental psychology. Date: Sep 26 23:02 Author: Faraway -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The "Families Forever" attracts people because of some intuitive truth there, but it's not the way that humans (egos) usually frame it. (I sense that the intuitive truth is that all people, even all beings, are fragments of one holy Family and that spiritual evolution brings us ever closer to realizing our Oneness. Individually, this takes the form of the same beings appearing together or in relationship in many conditions (or incarnations, if that suits you) in order to reach this realization.) Light on how the church interprets this idea can be seen in psychological models of the evolving self. Harvard psychologist Robert Kegan has a revealing book on this, "In Over Our Heads: The Mental Demands of Modern Life" (1994), which states that schooling in general equips people psychologically to deal with life in the "traditional" societies of past centuries (monolithic truth, sacrifice for the community, entering into defined social roles, and sharing of a common 'adult' mindset). The demands of marriage, parenthood, work, and higher education, however, seem to contain a "hidden curriculum" requiring people to expand their thinking to fit modern & postmodern conditions of multiple roles for the individual, need for autonomy, and a diverse society. Kegan also considers families and marriages from the perspective of these different evolutionary stages (traditional, modern, postmodern). Briefly, the traditional view is that members must think and feel alike, sharing all perspective and values if there is to be the comforting sense of unity. Individualistic differentiation, in the form of thinking for oneself and critically examining inherited traditions, is threatening to the consensus of a traditional society (family, marriage). The modern emphasis on authenticity, autonomy, a separate and stable sense of self encourages people to define their own value systems, and in group interactions this calls sizing up situations, sticking to one's ideals, setting boundaries, honoring others likewise as independent individuals, tolerating differences, and compormising (marriages are often complementary unions). Although this appears to be a core "American" ideal, Kegan estimates that up to 70% of Americans don't make the transition to this stage. But beyond this, some individuals start to question their separate individuality and their self-authoring likewise as fictions, just as before they had questioned the inherited views. When this happens (only to a small number, and usually not until middle age), new possibilities of relationship open up. In marriages, for example, one sees oneself not as anything "set" but as a transforming being, aligned with one's partner in a convergence beyond what were before the defining differences. I see the Families Forever truth in this last, post-individual perspective, where people realize a deeper spiritual connectedness as their truer identity than their idiosyncratic differences (which are not threatening & which soften considerably as members come to recognize neglected aspects of themselves in others). The church view, in practice, appears staunchly traditional, and those who question & leave that traditional view appear to favor more of a live-and-let-live view of Family. Subject: Hmmm, I'll have to get that book. Date: Sep 27 10:40 Author: Stray Mutt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm particularly intrigued with the idea that institutions prepare us to live in the past, and that many people have a hard time making the transition to the kind of thinking necessary to live in the present. This might explain those who cling so tenaciously to tradition, systems, institutions and the idea of absolute, universal, unwavering truth. Subject: One of the most influential that I've read Date: Sep 27 11:23 Author: Faraway -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Very readable, with so many extended examples of people confronted by transitional demands (e.g., are you completely honest with your children or do you fudge on honesty for their own good?--an example of how modern life presents ethical problems that education & socialization haven't covered). Kegan also writes extensively about that troublesome transition between egocentric, concrete thinking and empathetic, abstract thinking--adolescence. Adolescents really don't understand the new demands made on them across the board, since these are never explicitly explained, yet they are encountered in school, family, peer relationships, & work. Hence the turmoil of those years. In fact, he sees (with many examples) that many in our society who are labled sociopathic (mentally ill or delinquent) simply have not been able to make that transition. Subject: My mother can't see past the "forever family" to accept her real family Date: Sep 27 11:29 Author: spinner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think the idea of the perfect forever family has done a severe disservice to my mother and kept her from ever enjoying her real family. I have a very successful family, all good people, all with college and some with advanced degrees. Nevertheless, my mother is constantly beset by the idea that her family is a failure. She thinks that to be successful, her family has to be some sanitized, cover of the Ensign eternal unit. Otherwise, she and we are failures. This unhealthy attitude has made her look at almost everything she has done as a failure, because every moment of life is not a big, glowing, slightly fuzzy image like they show in church videos. A good example of this happened a couple of years ago. I was 24 and living at home for a few months between undergrad and grad school. At the time, I no longer believed in the church, but was maintaining a fa硤e simply for the sake of domiciliary peace. Well, my mother (although she insisted she was not snooping) found some porn on my laptop. I will spare everyone the details of dollops of guilt that were piled on me, except for this one revealing comment. She said to me ?I thought that at least one of my sons was going to be pure,? meaning she had hoped for her sons to go into marriage having never seen a woman?s breast and that their first precious orgasm would be on their wedding night. It was clearly not enough that her oldest son, for instance, was temple married and extremely happy. He?d done things as a pre-missionary and this forever tainted everything after in her mind. He was no longer the church-approved husband, going over the threshold in a state of profound ignorance and holy purity, and in her mind this obviously forever stained his family. No Ensign covers for them! The point of this story is not to say my mother doesn?t love us; she does very much. Rather, it is to show how the idea of an eternal family is in many ways more important to her than her actual family. What she wants is a family where every moment could be an Ensign cover. She cannot see past the fact that we are not this idealized family to realize that we are, by and large, happy, fulfilled, successful and well-adjusted individuals. The ideal of an eternal family keeps her from really knowing and accepting her real family. Subject: Forever Families? are perfect, the members aren't. Date: Sep 27 12:26 Author: Stray Mutt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wait, that sounds familiar. Subject: (F-BOMB) This article fresh from Church News, 9/27/2003 is quite ironic Date: Sep 27 13:26 Author: Jezebel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and they seem not to have noticed anything is amiss. Missionary moments: School assignment On ... in the ... meetinghouse of the ... Stake, my mother, ..., my sisters ... and I, along with two friends, were baptized by Elders X and Y This marked the beginning of a modern-day pioneer legacy. It all began when I was assigned to give a report in school on any topic related to religion. I vividly remember feeling discouraged over this seemingly simple assignment when a newspaper article caught my eye. It was entitled, "Forever families." When I read those two words, my heart began pounding and my curiosity was overwhelming. These two words sounded so familiar even though the phrase was foreign to me. The article was written because the well-known Osmond Brothers were in town for a concert. Forever families was a concept taught in their religion. I knew I had found my topic. But as I researched the "Mormons" in various library books, I just wasn't satisfied. Mom suggested that I phone their church and ask them if they would help out with my report. Elders Z and W met me at my school. I will never forget the glow they had as they walked towards me. I recognized them although I had never seen a Mormon missionary in my life. [No kidding? They do look different don't they?] They brought such a warm and beautiful feeling with them which I now recognize as the Spirit. The elders actually gave my report by showing "Meet the Mormons" and held a question-and-answer period. [How convenient for you.] I knew I had found something very beautiful and I wanted so to share it with my family. We took the discussions, along with two girls from my religion class, and we accepted the gospel. After our baptism, our lives literally started over. We were disowned by family members because of our decision, but the light and joy the gospel brought to us far exceeded any and all trials. Although Mom has since passed away, she in her great love for missionary work is undoubtedly sharing the gospel on the other side. And so the legacy continues as our sons are now serving as well as preparing to serve full-time missions that they, too, may bring that same light that was brought to us over 30 years ago. ? [a girl] xxx Idaho Stake In other, plain words: F*CK THE FAMILY, WE PREFER THE CHURCH. So they preach "families forever", but in reality, they couldn't care less. Subject: Absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt Date: Sep 27 13:46 Author: Merilynn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I finally told my mother last week that I thank God I no longer believe in eternal families, because I'd sure as hell hate to think I'm stuck in this one (my extended family) for eternity. They're all very, very truly brainwashed mormons, a fate I'm still not sure why I was lucky enough to be able to escape. They can all spout off the s@#t about how wonderful eternal families are. Yet we always did, and still do, nothing but backbite, slander and belittle each other, and when I think of it, that's the way it always was. My parents talk to each other with a "when am I going to be rid of you" attitude in their voices and the things they say to each other. Yet if you asked them, they can't wait to be together as a family for all eternity. I think people just like being able to say the words "Forever Family," but really don't like the notion of what it would actually mean. My children and I all getting out of the church has really been the catalyst in helping my immediate family start to heal from the damage the "forever families" theology reacked on us--from my marrying someone I wasn't compatible with just so I could get married in the holy temple of God and be a "forever family" to expecting my children to conform to certain rules to be accepted by their parents. I've made a lot of mistakes with my family but in learning what forgiveness is really all about, hopefully we'll be able to continue to grow close and accepting of each other. Hopefully we'll be able to just be loving, supportive and helpful to each other in this life and only have to worry about being part of the "Family of Man" for the eternities. Subject: Thanks Perry Noid for a solid intelligent thread that Date: Sep 27 16:40 Author: cricket -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- hits right at the core of the cult. My family of two parents and seven children are all alive, but four of us siblings are dead to our parents because we have officially resigned membership in their "Families Are Forever Cult." Four of the siblings rarely if ever speak with the three siblings that are so busy in their ward callings and temple work they have forgotten that we exist. My daughter is marrying in Feb in the SLC temple and me, the worthless ol' exmo patriarch gets to stand outside in a blizzard whilst his princess gets brainwashed and "sealed" inside of that family destroying edifice. Oh what joy the gospel of Gordon brings. My ass! And Mormons just can't understand why the public in general thinks Mormons are oddballs. (source: exmormon.org)

For what it’s worth, I have attended a United Methodist Church for the last 18 years or so, where I teach Sunday School (my adult class), serve on the stewardship committee and help lead our early Sunday morning service. (But I guess that could be part of my secret Mormon disguise.)

I’ll try to defend any person’s right to his own faith. And I have no problem with people describing anyone else’s religion, and drawing attention to any facts about it. I just have problems with calling people’s faith “wrong” as a factual matter when it is a matter of faith.

I leave open the question as to whether an adherent to any religion ACTUALLY believes what he says, but that, too, is not for me to question.

Even though I disagree with the tone of some of what has been said on this thread, I absolutely support the posters’ right to say it.

I think zots should be in order...

NO!!

I need SOMEONE to address my replies to!

I wouldn’t buy the underwear just yet. Everything comes with a caveat.
________________________________________

Yeah

ya gotta put that ugly itchy T-Shirty top UNDER your bra..

I am not Mormon. Nevertheless, I am troubled by anyone questioning anyone else’s faith.

And yet later in your reply you CLAIM to be a CHRISTIAN??

Oprah has REALLY ruined you!!!

Acts 18:11
So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.

Romans 15:4
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Romans 16:17
I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

1 Corinthians 4:17
For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

1 Corinthians 11:2
2. I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.

Ephesians 4:14-15
14. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
15. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

1 Timothy 1:3-4
3. As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
4. nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

1 Timothy 1:7
They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

1 Timothy 2:7
And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

1 Timothy 4:1-2
1. The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
2. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

1 Timothy 4:6
If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

1 Timothy 4:11
Command and teach these things.

1 Timothy 6:3-5
3. If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
4. he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions
5. and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

2 Timothy 1:13
What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 2:15-17
15. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
16. Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
17. Their teaching will spread like gangrene.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17. so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Titus 1:11
They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

Titus 2:1
You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.

Titus 2:15
These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

Hebrews 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.

2 Peter 2:1-3
1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

2 John 1:10
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.