Posted on 02/19/2012 4:28:52 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.(Mark 16:16)
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:(I Peter 3:20-21)
Today in our local church, we celebrate the hopeful end of a long draught… the first baptism in more than a year and a half. True, our two baptisms amount to a “cloud the size of a man’s hand” but we humbly rejoice! As it is written,”despise not the day of small beginnings”.
In contemplating baptism, I have been meditating on the scriptures above. In what sense could it be said that “baptism now saves us”? I know that it is faith in Jesus’ blood that has procured the pardon and status of righteousness that I needed in order to “flee the wrath” of a righteous and holy God!
The Christian author Watchman Nee, an early but profound influence on my discipleship is helpful here. In the book “Love Not The World” , Nee points out that the word “salvation” is used not in a general but in a specific sense.
Nee points out that every detail of our sinful and God estranged existence has been answered to by the work of God in Christ. For example, because of our spiritual death, God gives eternal life. Sin has ruined the old creation, but God makes a new creation. Since man is under a just but severe condemnation, through Jesus, God offers man justification by faith. Redemption is multi-faceted.
Another facet of man’s ruin is the fact that he has been born and raised, in this world. The term “the world” , in the new testament usually refers to God estranged humanity as it has organized itself, independently of and to the exclusion of the only true God. It is the greek word “Cosmos”, meaning ‘the order” or “adornment”.
Thus salvation is not so much a personal question of sins forgiven or of hell avoided. It is to be seen rather in terms of a system from which we come out. When I am saved, I make my exodus out of one whole world and my entry into another. I am saved now out of that whole organized realm which Satan has constructed in defiance of the purpose of God.(Watchman Nee,”Love Not The World”,Christian Literature Crusade)
The Word of God says of the World;
* It is already under a judgment- Jesus said, Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.(John 12:31) The sentence has already been passed, the world is already judged by God , the Lord is uncompromising in his resolution. As in the days of Noah, the execution of the sentence hangs over the world like a cloud, the day of Divine vengeance draws near!
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright(Psalm 11:5-7)
* The real ruler of the world is Satan- In the scripture above, Jesus referred to ‘the prince of this world’, who would be cast down, at the judgment of this world. Jesus would later proclaim that in the coming of Judas ,’the prince of this world comes….’. Who was he referring to? Satan, the real ‘god’ of this age, and the mind behind the ‘world system’.John, the Lord’s apostle warned us that “the whole world lies in the wicked one’s power”.
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. (I John 5:19 NASB)
* The world hates Christ- If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you ( John 15: 17-18)
Don’t let the world deceive you with it’s platitudes about Jesus as a ‘good man’ or a philosopher, the world hates the real Jesus of the Bible. He offends them because he tells them that they aren’t right, and that they need to be saved, and worse yet, that they can’t even save themselves!
The world has crafted another christianity that is more to their liking, but it is anti-christ.They hate the real Christ and would crucify him again if given a chance.That is why the world has always persecuted christians wherever possible.
* The love of the world and the love of the Father are mutually exclusive - John reveals this truth to us, in this admonition of his epistle;
Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (I John 2:15)
Therefore we are “saved” out of this world! In this sense do Peter and Mark proclaim that “baptism saves”, or that “he that believes and is baptized will be saved”. In baptism, we are stepping over the line of demarcation, exiting the doomed world, even as Noah did , through the water.
Remember that Israel never really left Egypt until she crossed the Red Sea. Egypt went in with her, but never came out the other side as she did. There is no real leaving of the ties of this world, without a valid new testament baptism whenever possible.
Two brothers, left the World today, calling upon Jesus! They went from one Kingdom to another, they crossed the Red Sea! They passed through the flood of Judgment into the Kingdom of Light! They justified God! Hallelujah!!
we might have a different definition of the word ‘grace’.
Easy way to find out... what is your definition?
I Believe that Grace is undeserved favor, given to us by God, and I believe that it is enablement,(the gifts of the spirit are charis, graces). Also I believe that Grace works in us, and teaches us internally, it is the activity of the Holy Spirit.
I took great pains to show you the Church's position Biblically... I would appreciate the same courtesy. Do you have something to go by besides your own opinion? As an aside, these types of conversations show Christ's Wisdom in giving us a Church with a teaching authority (Magisterium) to anchor the Truth. Otherwise, we go off on many tangents on what seems to be so straightforward.
Do you remember the man lowered through the roof to be healed by Jesus (Mark 2, Luke 5)? What did Jesus say to him... "be healed"? No. He said the man's sins were forgiven. This caused a great scandal to the religious leaders who noted (correctly) that this would be blasphemy because only God could forgive sins. Jesus used this incident to show His authority.
Flash forward to the discussion of the Apostles forgiving sins (John 20:23)... Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to His Apostles because such authority was His to give. There would be no need for such authority if all men were to simply pray for forgiveness directly to Jesus and receive forgiveness directly from Him.
If you simply read this verse, it is easy to see that Jesus is talking about calling someone “father” in place of our heavenly Father. This is exactly what Rome does however. They claim that the pope or a priest stands in place of God as the Alter-Christ and is to be called “father” in this context. This is a direct and specific violation of Jesus’ teaching.
What are the significance of the Keys given to St Peter? If you read Isaiah 22 in context, you can see that it is the authority of the King Himself. He who bears the Keys is the Prime Minister among ministers in administering the kingdom. It doesn't make him king... but it does give him the king's authority. Just so with the Davidic Kingdom of Christ where St Peter has been given the Keys of authority that what he binds on Earth is bound in Heaven and what is loosed on Earth is loosed in Heaven (Matt 16:19). There is one Kingdom on Earth and in Heaven... and that is REAL authority. We don't see St Peter and his successors as taking the place of Christ, but rather acting for Christ as the Prime Minister of His Kingdom until He comes in glory.
So let's talk again about St Paul. In the quote I gave you above from 1 Cor 4:14-15: "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Earlier, St Paul said the following: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith: I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I am of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Cor 1:12-14). So which is it? Is he a father to the Corinthians or not?
The answer is found in the understanding of the Church. We are the Catholic Church, the universal Church. It isn't just of the earthly parishioners, it is universal even with the Saints of Heaven. We are in communion with the Saints, as we say in the Creeds. We profess one head, Who is Christ. This is not the Church of the Popes, it is the Church given us by Christ full of mysteries we've only begun to understand... but which, in unraveling mysteries of the past has found no contradiction. Why? Because we are discovering Truth, not inventing a congregation.
This isn't true of the Protestant side of Christianity. St Paul's admonition that people not identify the Church with him personally is shown in the folly of the Calvinists, the Lutherans, the Mormons, the Anglicans, and others who follow the teachings of individuals and attend churches built upon them as the head. That is the warning from St Paul above. We were meant to be one, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church built by Christ (Matt 16:18), not many churches arguing among ourselves.
The Catholic Church hasn't made up priests to stand between the congregation and Jesus. Jesus gave us priests to minister to us. The priest does not stand in place of Christ, He stands in the person of Christ. When you receive Holy Communion and Reconciliation from the Priest, you are receiving it from Christ in the person of the Priest who has been given this authority from Christ down through the ages.
Your argument isn't with me on these points, I have taken great pains to show our position Biblically. If you respond again, I would appreciate something more than the Gospel according to Tramonto.
You cut-n-pasted from an article which claimed that Jesus was speaking 'hyperbole' so you can ignore those verses.
Do you have something to go by besides your own opinion?
I gave you my interpretation, you cut -n-pasted a long article that quoted a lot of verses that no one is disagreeing with.
As an aside, these types of conversations show Christ's Wisdom in giving us a Church with a teaching authority (Magisterium) to anchor the Truth. Otherwise, we go off on many tangents on what seems to be so straightforward.
You then go off on a bunch of tangents but I'll go ahead and ignore them.
The priest does not stand in place of Christ, He stands in the person of Christ. When you receive Holy Communion and Reconciliation from the Priest, you are receiving it from Christ in the person of the Priest who has been given this authority from Christ down through the ages.
The priests exalt them selfs as being "In Persona Christi" and demand to be called father in this context. Jesus said we have one Father who is in heaven. The whole context of Matthew 23 is about a class of people lording themselves over the believers and standing between them and God. It was wrong when the pharisees did it and its wrong when Rome does it.
Let me return the favor.
The Final Question
But I have one final question for my Roman Catholic friends. And I assure you I have many friends, I am not speaking antagonistically or with hostility to any Catholic people. I'm only asking you these questions which I’d like you to answer, I invite you to answer. Engage with me, there’s one more I’d like to ask you.
I am told that the doctrine of the mass says Jesus must die and again and again and again sacramentally. The same sacrifice that took place on Calvary happens in the mass: He dies sacramentally. He has to die again, again, and again. Remembering that the Lord’s Supper – communion, the Eucharist as Catholics would define it – comes from the Jewish Passover which is a memorial, you remember something already happened, the Roman Church rather says, “No, it continues to happen sacramentally.”
I'm reading from the epistle to the Hebrews 7:27, Christ…
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
Why is there daily mass when it says we don't need a daily Mass? The Old Testament sacrifices that took place daily with the priests in the temple were symbols of what the Messiah would do. Given the fact that He came and did it, we don't need it anymore according to the epistle to the Hebrews.
The epistle to the Hebrews 9:12…
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He…
…that is, Christ…
…entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
If it’s “eternal” it means it’s forever and ever without end, without beginning as such – it’s eternal. He did it once and for all for all eternity. Why is there a mass?
Chapter 10 of Hebrews, verse 12…
but He…
…that is, Christ…
… having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,
One sacrifice for sins for all time. Verse 14…
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
If something is perfection, by definition it cannot be improved upon. How can you improve upon perfection?
Given the fact that Rome claims Peter was the first pope, can it be explained why, in his epistle in 1 Peter 3:18, St. Peter says Christ died once to bear the sins? Once – perfection – for all eternity! We don’t need a priest to do it again and again like in the Old Testament, the Priest has come. It’s a good question.
A famous priest who was a Catholic theologian, the author of eight books, on a video admitted he didn't have the answer. Understand something: What astounded me coming from a Catholic background on my mother’s side was that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for teaching as precepts of God the inventions of men. (Mt. 15:9; Mk. 7:7)
The last thing Jesus said in the Apocalypse is don’t add to the Bible. (Rev. 22:18-19) In his First epistle to the Corinthians 4:6 St. Paul said, “Learn not to exceed what is written”. Moses says don’t add to it, (Dt. 4:2) Jesus said if you do you’ll be condemned to hell. Find me indulgences, purgatory, or the mass in the New Testament. Penance? Whose sins you shall forgive? That was talking about leading people to Christ. Show me one place in the book of Acts where the early Christians went to confession to a priest. Or a better question, show me a priest.
There is no such thing as a priest in the New Testament because we are all called priests by Peter. (1 Pe. 2:5; 2:9) St. Peter said we are all priests with Christ as the High Priest. There is no “priest”, the word is “presbyter” where you get the word “Presbyterian”. It meant the elders of a congregation. There was no priesthood other than the priesthood of all Christians. Jesus said call no man your father as a religious title. In Matthew 23, St. Matthew quotes Jesus As saying, “Call no man your father”. (Mt. 23:9) Jesus forbade us to call the pope a “holy father” or to call the priest “our father”. He forbade it as a religious title. “Call no man your father”. There’s no priest, He said don’t even call somebody that, One is your Father who is in heaven.
With sincerity I've asked these questions. Who do I believe, Mary or the Vatican? Who do I believe, St. Paul or the Vatican? Who do I believe, St. Peter or the Vatican? Who do I believe, St. Matthew or the Vatican? Who do I believe, Jesus Christ or the Vatican? I had to make a decision, so do you. Whom will you believe?
When I accepted Jesus I came to realize two things. I came to realize that the Christianity I was brought up in by my mother was not the one of the New Testament. I also came to realize that the real Jesus was a Jewish Jesus, He was the Jewish Messiah. Having been educated in Catholic school but sent to the Jewish community center, I was astounded at the blindness of the Jew and the blindness of the Catholic. I once was blind, but by the grace of Jesus, now I see.
You repent of your sin, you put your faith in Him and accept that He died for you, ask Him to come into into your life, and follow Him on the basis of His Word, He will do for you what He's done for many Roman Catholics – He will save you. What Mary was promised you can have.
Please contact us. My name is James Jacob Prasch. Please e-mail me, e-mail us, with your questions. We have people who will be more than happy to talk to you. If you’re a priest or a nun we’d be happy to engage with you. Please contact us. E-mail us or write us here in Britain:
Moriel
P.O. Box 201
Maidenhead SL69FB
God bless you and thank you for listening.
No, I borrowed liberally from an article which had very appropriate Scripture citations to make my argument to you. You have failed to address the fact that the Apostles saw themselves as fathers to their followers and said so plainly in Scripture. If you are not in disagreement with the cited Scripture, square that with the prohibition to call earthly men father... I'd like to continue the discussion and not get sidetracked with distractions.
You then go off on a bunch of tangents but I'll go ahead and ignore them.
What I have posted has not been off-topic, but you're right... you are ignoring the main discussion.
The priests exalt them selfs as being "In Persona Christi" and demand to be called father in this context.
No, Christ raised up men to be fathers to His Church. They acknowledged this calling in their own Scripture writings. You have failed to address them.
The whole context of Matthew 23 is about a class of people lording themselves over the believers and standing between them and God.
Read it again... Matt 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, 2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. 3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not.
The point of Matt 23 is the hypocritical nature of their religious leaders who tied up burdens on the people they themselves were unwilling to carry. They fashioned themselves as more righteous than the people... even more righteous than those who came before them. However, Christ doesn't just not deny their authority to preach as they do, He tells the people that they should follow their teachings! Their authority is true... their hearts are not.
Unfortunately, this is where most Catholic-Protestant conversations go on FreeRepublic... we get challenged to show that the Church is Biblical. We show that there is very good reason to believe as we do. The response we get for our efforts amounts to "you're wrong because I say you're wrong." You can see I've gone to a lot of effort to answer your question on the priesthood drawing on Biblical sources rather than Church authority, I'm asking you in Christian charity to consider and answer with specific objections, not seek distractions (like how much of a post was pasted). When I draw heavily on some other source, I say so... and you're free to view the other source to see how much was drawn and how it was adapted to my argument. Otherwise, what you get from me, is me from a conscience formed by the Church's teaching.
Hey Tromonto, do you know Jacob? He will be speaking in our church in April.
Incorrect Catholic theology. Jesus on the Cross is a specific event in time, just as the Exodus was a specific event in Jewish history. However, the Jews were still to celebrate the Passover as if it were happening to them because it was the Exodus which allowed them to celebrate at all times. Just so, we celebrate the Mass not as rekilling Christ but as a participation in His once for all sacrifice. It is one sacrifice participated in by all the faithful throughout history just as the Passover was one Exodus participated in by all faithful Jews throughout their history. Don't just take my word for it, here's the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Why is there daily mass when it says we don't need a daily Mass? The Old Testament sacrifices that took place daily with the priests in the temple were symbols of what the Messiah would do. Given the fact that He came and did it, we don't need it anymore according to the epistle to the Hebrews.
Actually, all it takes is a subtle shift of perspective. If you can see the Mass as the participation in Christ's once for all sacrifice, then at all times in all places we celebrate because this is the time of the Messiah and He is the sacrifice we offer.
If it’s “eternal” it means it’s forever and ever without end, without beginning as such – it’s eternal. He did it once and for all for all eternity. Why is there a mass?
Ancient Jewish writings attest that in the time of the Messiah, all sacrifices would cease except for one... the Todah (praise and thanksgiving) sacrifice. This is because they were enjoined to celebrate the Passover forever... and yet you don't celebrate it. We do... in the Mass, where we offer back to God the gift He gave us in His Son in Praise and Thanksgiving.
The rest of your tract gets off on further tangents. I would like to stay on the issue we're discussing. When you would actually like to have a discussion, let me know. If you're just going to post a screed by someone else and not even directly address what I've already put before you, then there isn't much reason to have a conversation with you.
Concerning the Holy Spirit, He was poured out on Jesus when He was baptized and God said, this is my beloved son.
There is also the verse 5 below,
He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Titus 3
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Another scripture is : Gal 3:27
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
I would consider baptism to be a means of the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, as well as a consequence of it. By that I mean that because of my reception of the gracious gift of salvation, co death and co resurrection with Jesus, I gladly submit to Baptism. At my baptism God gave me the grace to publically confess Him, I have no doubt I was filled with the Holy Spirit afresh and anew, at my baptism. In that way baptism became a means of grace to me.BTW How do you define Grace?
Excellent.
"You should try the actual Gospels... I recommend John 3:5."
Guys... The gospel is found at Colossians 1:21-23. Those verses specifically tell you that it is the gospel.
Colossians 1:21-23 - "Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation — if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."
The Gospel is the Cross. Death, burial and resurrection. Period! 1 Cor 15: 1-4. YOu can believe what you might.
Give me a couple days to respond.
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