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Childish behavior |
Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)
I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.
Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …
… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)
I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?
Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.
But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.
Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)
One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.
Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?
False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.
The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.
These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.
Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.
The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.
The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…
At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!
Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!
“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.
Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,
When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)
The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.
“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.
Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !
Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)
Now who is the one who brought it up with post after post, 'it's their fault'???
That's a slur.
When some just can't see - cartoons fit the bill.
Disagreeing with you does not make a martyr out of you. Warning you of danger we see to you does not make a martyr out of you
Nor does it make a 'victim' out of anyone. PROJECTION!!
That label isn’t wearing well on you. Let it go.
LOL! More projection!
Making a list, checking it twice?
AMEN!!
I believe no words can do anything here - ONLY the Holy Spirit because some are TOTALLY clueless on the Power of The Word.
Surface readers with no meditation are concerned about you being on a dangerous path!! LOL!
I don’t know about that. When I attended Family Worship Center in 1983, Jimmy Swaggart was Assemblies of God. Either he has changed, his son has changed, or the Assemblies of God has changed.
More than 1 or 2, IIRC. Half a dozen or more, IIRC.
AM QUITE BLESSED
that you . . . and some others . . .
see the same or similar construction on reality I do.
BLESS YOU TONS, DEAR HEART.
I trust folks mean caring when they say caring.
Certainly lots of RC’s did/do not perceive my caring toward them in lots of my posts.
Nevertheless, some of the posts on this thread hide the caring very well. LOL.
I certainly am consistent enough with my own values and style to be glad that anyone would pull out all the stops to try and rescue me from whatever spiritual ditch they saw me headed for.
HOWEVER, WHEN the motivations persistently COME ACROSS AS a decades long pique, anger, hostility, bitterness, resentment toward other religious/spiritual leaders over some chronic disappointments and exasperations—either toward God or the leaders . . . then I become more than a little concerned that the “caring” seems to be all contaminated to saturated with their own personal pique at folks and stuff quite divorced from, having little or nothing to do with me.
In terms of their purported BIBLICAL understanding. I’m shocked that such loved ones could so brazenly set aside so many plain verses and their obvious meanings. I realize that reading comprehension taught in our schools has gone to blazes in a handbasket. However, these loved ones likely learned to read before that rot set in.
It’s almost as though some horrific emotionality and deep seated angst has clouded intellectual and certainly spiritual understanding on some key points. I hate to see that in anyone—particularly loved cohorts of such long relationships. That grieves me a lot.
THANKFULLY, as you seem to well know; certainly Joya knows; Some of the men in our church know . . . THOSE OF US WITH SOLID SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES need not be troubled by folks with mere arguments.
GOD HIMSELF HAS REPEATEDLY MADE HIMSELF; HIS PURPOSES AND EVEN HIS METHODS VERY REAL to me . . . fitting quite well within my constructions on Biblical realities in these matters. How on earth could I go back on BIBLICALLY ACCURATE truths and life experience things that GOD HIMSELF HAS PROVEN so repeatedly in my life!!?!!
Anyone expecting that is barking up the wrong tree.
Like 'manna' in the old testament (foreshadow) kept them well and not one feeble one among them - even their shoes didn't wear out!! -
"My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. For they are LIFE unto those that find them, and HEALTH to ALL their flesh. Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." Proverbs 4:20-23
God/His Word/His Spirit takes care of ALL our needs. Some are clueless on how to turn on the switch - so they never get the light. They keep calling the power company to turn it on. Too clueless to know they have the power - they just need to turn it on! THE POWER OF THE Holy Spirit inspired WORD of God!!
Anyone expecting that is barking up the wrong tree.
Same here!!
I don’t have God in a tidy little box about healing or anything else.
I think Curry Blake has the best handle on that sphere.
I just take Scripture at face value and try to walk it out as Holy Spirit leads to the best of my discernment and His enablement.
That has worked best in my life over many decades.
And, I know Holy Spirit rises up fiercely within me when folks pretend to try and box HIM into UNBIBLICAL ancient fossil encrusted boxes.
5. As well as dangerously close to ascribing to Holy Spirit evil doings—an extremely hazardous spiritual stance and perspective.
Could you show us *UNBiblical* by directing us to the Scripture that supports your point of view?
Such as ....
Where in Scripture is tongues a sign to believers for anything?
Where it's stated that every believer must evidence tongues as an indicator of being filled (baptized) with the Holy Spirit?
Where Scripture teaches that it's a prayer language which has more power than speaking in one's native tongue?
Where in Scripture a prophet is permitted to not be 100% accurate 100% of the time?
Where we are told to seek after tongues, as so much charismatic theology teaches?
wow..... just wow.....
Are what you consider *qualified* teachers the only ones you can listen to?
Scripture is Scripture and anyone can use it to rebuke or correct. It takes no special teaching or training or *anointing* to rightly divide Scripture and point out error to some one using it because it is the truth.
It's based on the truthfulness of Scripture, not the qualifications of the person doing the correcting.
To think otherwise smacks of pride.
James 1:2-4 2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Where's your argument?
Meanwhile... It wasn't about teaching you or about you. It was about omitting the first critical portion of the verse you presented, which does clarifiy the correct context in which the verse entire should be understood............Rather than using just a portion of it to support a misrepresentation of the verse by omission of pertinent information, which therefore distorted the truth of what the text was actually saying.
As you know we are accountable to God when false representation of His word is given, especially when it would mis-lead other people into error or misunderstanding of God's truth as He gives it.
As for meditating on God's word. Some things are simply crystal clear without giving deep thought and contemplation to when we are seeking the truth for what it says, rather than trying to twist it to what we want it to say.... which would require some thought and manipulation of the context of the text to accomplish that purpose.
What is so called a new openness.... by allowing God to do whatever he wants... AKA “don’t put God in a box”..... is really spiritual liberalism in disguise.
Certainly God has done many things in the past in unusual ways, often times not the way we would expect....But the issue is not can God do certain things but will He do them..... For He will never contradict His own word or principles but cooperate with it to accomplish His goals.
So we look for His ways that are conducive to His nature to be sure it is God. For if we attribute something to God ...when in fact it is not God,... we have put Him in a box!
Why the wow? Do you listen to 'anyone' just babble on while they show they have no understanding?
It takes no special teaching or training or *anointing* to rightly divide Scripture and point out error to some one using it because it is the truth.
Well I've seen the 'no special teaching/training/anointing' crowd in action - so no thanks. I use the 'author' instead - right from THE SOURCE the way it was meant to be.
Go to a thread where a FReeper is asking for prayer for someone. And that someone is a saved FReeper. And that someone, after prayers, and intercessions, and laying on of hands, and prayer cloths, and faith, faith, faith, dies. I want to see you go on that thread and tell those posters, and the family of that FReeper that this person evidently did not have enough faith. That this person WOULD have been healed "by His stripes" if only this person would have had MORE faith.
Do it. I'll give you a thread you can go to right now. Show us your faith in action. Show us your absolute confidence that with enough faith, God WILL heal those who believe, every time. It's time to shut our mouths with the power of your beliefs.
Ping me when you've done it. Or better yet, we'll all just wait and watch your unswerving "faith" in action.
I’m with you on that one smvoice. I have challenged others with those same challenges and not once have I been taken up on any of them. It seems most who vehemently support the “healing ministry” have a lack of faith when challenged to produce.
I’m with you on that one smvoice. I have challenged others with those same challenges and not once have I been taken up on any of them. It seems most who vehemently support the “healing ministry” have a lack of faith when challenged to produce.
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