Saul And The Charismatics...

http://billrandles.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/saul-and-the-charismatics/ ^ | 02-14-12 | Bill Randles

[pastorbillrandles]

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

[metmom]

You go girl......

[smvoice]

..and it’s not like anyone cannot go somewhere in SCRIPTURE to find out what happened. In order to keep from making the VERY SAME MISTAKES the Corinthians made. “yeah, but that was them. WE are different..we have more discernment than they had..WE can’t be fooled, and IF we are, then shame on the fooler. NOT on us, because we do not need to compare the Scriptures and study them daily to see if those things are so..it just FEELS right, so it MUST be..” And whatever you do, do NOT post Scripture or attempt to show through God’s Word your belief on the matter. It WILL be NOT be met with a reasoned discourse and conversation, using the Scriptures to guide and longsuffering and doctrine to explain. It will be met with wrath, indignation, scorn, belittling, hostility, and ridicule. Everything but Scripture. Corinthian hospitality at its finest.

[metmom]

The miracles recorded in the book of Acts are simply not being reproduced in churches today as was done by the Apostles.

That cannot be overemphasized or stated often enough.

[caww]

There are lessons learned through affliction which I cannot imagine can be learned any other way.

That's because Jesus did say we would have trials and tribulations...you are right to say the expectations of how our life should be lived by the worlds standards is not how God said it would be for those of the faith.....

Additionally some things simply cannot be 'understood' without going through them. Also, that goes for those who stand with people going thru things...we do learn and understand how limited we are in helping another and so draw on God for Him to sustain us and be what we need to be for those afflicted.

Most of all we realize the joy of relying on God, we certainly recognize there are things which are impossible to endure apart from Him.....and often see His hand and heart reach to us then.

Either now, tomorrow or then, all who know Christ will come thru either in this world or the next...so his Promises are true just as He has said.

[Quix]

[Quix]

.
even though
It's simply an
untrue assertion?!
There are churches all around the world
where such
resurrections, miracles and healings are reasonably routine.

[grey_whiskers]

I think it's time to quote C.S. Lewis at you two.

From That Hideous Strength, Elwin Ransom interrupts a dispute between Dr. Grace Ironwood and Mr. MacPhee.

"I don't believe a word of all that other story," said MacPhee.

"I thought," said Miss Ironwood, "that we weren't to use words like believe. I thought we were only to state facts and exhibit implications."

"If you two quarrel much more," said the Director, "I think I'll make you marry one another."

Whatever happened to gentle admonishment and praying for each other?

(See also the chapter Protestant in Garrison Keillor's Lake Wobegon Days.)

Cheers!

[grey_whiskers]

I'm sorry, but it's past my bedtime. Everytime I read "Benny Hinn" my brain substitutes "Benny Hill".

Hilarity ensues.

Cheers!

[Quix]

In terms of Garrison Keilor . . .

I like the pontoon boat with 20 Lutheran ministers in hush puppies and . . .

[smvoice]

"For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:.."Col. 2:9-13.

As much as one would like to try, you CANNOT add anything to that which is COMPLETE. Please show me how that is done, and I will have to say God is a liar, that we aren't TRULY complete, without "tongues", "faith healers", all those signs that Mark 16:17-18 talked about and promised. Either that, or something CHANGED between Mark 16:17-18 and Col. 2:9-13.

My Bible tells me I am complete in Christ. And was the moment I was saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

[Quix]

Non sequitur night?

[Quix]

Or taking the straw dogs out for a walk?

[metmom]

2 Corinthians 1:3-10 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5 For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.

6 If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. 7 Our hope for you is unshaken, for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort.

8 For we do not want you to be unaware, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. For we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself. 9 Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead. 10 He delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will deliver us again.

God has taught me a lot of compassion for those who are suffering, something that had not been my strong suit. The ONLY way to learn compassion is to have been there. So instead of scorning them and looking down on them for being weak, I sympathize with the struggle they are going through. Instead of preaching at them and lecturing them to just suck it up and *have enough faith* I can understand the struggles they have in fighting the lies of the enemy and perhaps be of some help in helping the learn to resist the devil and take every thought captive.

[metmom]

You're doing it wrong!

Could you be a little more specific in refuting her post which is very Scripturally sound?

[grey_whiskers]

I was waiting for you to introduce that old car commercial with Ricardo Montalban and "fine Corinthian leather"...

Cheers!

[boatbums]

I think the church would be far better off being a little more conservative and skeptical before blindly accepting everything that comes down the pike just because someone else claims it's from God. Only the gullible and naive would believe everything they hear without exercising enough discernment to check it out.

Wholeheartedly agree! There is a gift of discernment, too, that far too few people exercise. I've been reading this really good article, while waiting for FR to come back online, and it speaks about this exact problem in the church today as well as the link to "Ecumenicalism" and the One World Religion that will come about because people do not know God's word. It is http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/holylaugh.htm and it starts out speaking about the "Holy Laughter" phenomenon tying it into the Charismatic movement and the putting down of people for not diving head first into any supposed movement of the Holy Spirit or for questioning those who lead others into it. One section states:

What we are witnessing in new evangelicalism and the charismatic movement is a subjective approach to God's Word. If something seems to work, it is accepted even if it cannot be validated by Scripture. Since it cannot be validated, it is assumed to be a new work of God. Those who reject it on the basis of its unbiblical or extra-Biblical character are regarded as faithless when, in fact, they are faithless toward the subjective religious philosophy of the "new thing" -- not toward God.

This subjectivity is necessary if Satan is going to meld humanity into a one-world religion. As the masses open themselves up to beliefs and practices that are not validated by Scripture, they leave themselves open to deception of the highest order, often presented in the name of Jesus.

The first step toward melding Christians into the New Age religion is not dissimilar to brianwashing techniques. The "yes set" is to get us to agree that all denominations share a common belief system. This is the motivating force behind the ecumenical movement sponsored by the Vatican and the major players in new evangelicalism and the charismatic movement.

The "truisms" will be that we also share common beliefs and values with aberrant Christian cults and monotheistic religions such as cabalistic Judaism and Islam.

The "suggestion" will be that we have a common spiritual bond with all of mankind. This suggestion will be implemented through the observation of signs and wonders construed to be of God. And if God can honor the faith of non-Christians, who are we to dissent from unity with them?

We can expect the holy laughter people to defend their practices as being of God, while these other practices are counterfeits. But holy laughter as we know it today came lately. All attempts to link it to Scripture or early revival history are without merit. Its real precedent is coincidental to New Age philosophy. Does God mimic something Satan originates? Or is He taken off guard by Satan? I think not. Else He would be guilty of causing confusion among His people. And God is not the author of confusion. (1 Cor. 14:33).

[Quix]

No.

IT’s NOT Scripturally sound.

And, I feel no compulsion to wade into it yet again.

My words are overwhelmingly not communicative nor respectable on this thread to y’all’s side so I’m decreasing the tedious futile exercises with them.

[caww]

I really enjoyed seeing that come together from bits and pieces throughout this thread I looked into as well as authors and various writers. I especially liked learning more about how these “gifts” were so focused on the Jewish people, though it's one of those things you know ...it's pretty interesting looking closer at that...and then you have those ah-ha moments along the way.

I especially was drawn to the Jewish portions by Smvc posts...and can never remember her initials! Boatbums too brought it up and so I looked further....same with the “ who’ was being addressed ...the Apostles or the people. Makes a difference.

on another note....I can't recall specifically now of the woman who walked with the crowds following Jesus and thought if she could just touch the hem of her His garmet she'd be healed....she had been to so many Dr's without any relieve. Well I walked her walk some years ago....though not from a physical aspect but a personal aspect.

Like her, I was in my thinking just another person in the crowd who followed Jesus. And if I could just get close enough to touch Him...He wouldn't notice...and I didn't want Him to notice..... But from what's recorded... despite the noise, clamor, pushing and shoving of the crowd around Jesus....’He called her out! He more than noticed her. He addressed her up front and personal..... I recall that moment in my life too.

[presently no screen name]

I think you are missing the whole point of what Metmom, caww and I are trying to say here.

NO, I am not!

There is a misconception about the so-called "sign" gifts and their reality in today's world. We had been discussing "tongues" and the false use and snooty attitude some have who claim to have been gifted with that particular gift.

SNOOTY attitude? Sounds more like some are looking down on what they don't have what others do. I think this is spiritual warfare - the same what is going on with class warfare. "You have and I don't" mentality. "If I don't have it, it's you who did something wrong to get it or you don't have it, just faking it" mentality.

Today, we have men and women making a lot of money off of claiming to have this same power that Jesus gave to the disciples as they went about establishing the church and these miracles were confirmations of the authority of the Gospel they preached.

Lot of money - more class warfare. The command to "Go make disciples" didn't STOP and neither did preaching the gospel.

People today, such as Benny Hinn, put on these elaborate shows and productions to get people to respond to their pleadings for money - whereas the disciples NEVER healed for that reason.

Healed for what reason? Is that how you see benny, pleading for money? If so, don't go to him. I don't know anyone who has gone to him and if some want to give him money - what business is it of yours. If he is what you claim, people will learn. Because you didn't get, maybe others did. How many went to car mechanics and didn't get want they wanted - so now we have false mechanics. If you think he's false or misleading - ignore him. It's a simple as that. In fact, it would be wise to do that - because you really don't know. Neither do I. Seems those who aren't healed are his loudest critics.

Thousands of people have NOT been healed by these "faith-healers" and leave dejected and lost because they were PROMISED an experience just like in Jesus' days here.

Really? Thousands - do you have that personally verified? Why leave dejected and lost? If they have faith - that they know that they know - NOTHING would make one dejected and lost. Seems more like they were 'trying' it instead of believing it. Are there some false - sure, we know that from Scripture but are all false? Or as some are proclaiming - healing isn't for today. Try telling that to someone who has been healed.

1. God sometimes DOES cause sickness.

WRONG!! Sickness is a curse and Who took the curses on the tree? Either you believe His Word or you don't.

2. God uses sickness to bring about his plan.

He can use sickness for a greater good but HE DOESN'T cause sickness. Just like He uses anything problem we believe Him for.

3. God does not always take away sickness but has a much higher purpose in it remaining.

WRONG!! That's simply a 'to feel good' response.

4. God is glorified as much, if not more, when sickness remains.

Really, how? Sickness is glorying - straight from the pit, IMO. I am The Lord that heals you and God is no respecter of person.

So, I disagree that anyone has that gift of healing sign gift today for the same reason I reject that people speak in tongues.

You can reject all you want, you simply won't have it. No problem. And those that believe, have it. So everyone is happy. So what's your problem - telling others who have it, they don't? Spin your wheels all you want if it makes you feel better. In the meantime, don't say my God brings sickness on anyone! If you believe you are still under the curse, that's your problem.

I will continue to HATE all evil and sickness is evil. BUT, I do agree that God is able to do ALL things and nothing is impossible for him. God DOES sometimes heal and sometimes he does NOT heal and regardless of whether I am healed in this life or I must wait for my glorified, perfect body in heaven, I have learned to trust in God's grace to see me through. It is God who heals me spiritually and that is the more important. For someone to come along and say things such as "sickness is not from God" ergo the devil is doing this to

[boatbums]

Should we assume then that any pastor, Preacher or Evangelist who does not follow up with miracles is not from God?

No, because the signs and wonders were to confirm the words the Apostles were preaching just as the Old Testament prophets were enabled by God. Now that we have the completed revelation from God - the Holy Scriptures - God-breathed and God confirmed truth is available to all. Any person who preaches and teaches the truths of the Christian faith HAS the Bible as their authority and all who would seek to know the truth should judge the truthfulness of anyone by what Scripture says. The Bible is the authority now and all doctrine must be measured by what it says.