The differences I quote have biblical founding and footing. The unity I call for is sincere.
Jesus Christ is my personal Savior. I accept His atonement and grace in my life and teach the same to my family, irrespective of the other differences. I am glad He will be my judge on these matters for He knows my heart.
I try and follow His commandments as He taught, "if ye love me, keep my commandments." an, despite my frailties and weaknesses, try and live as He would live.
There is nothing weak about any of that...you just do not agree with it. And that is fine. The fundamnetal moral values are precisely what I embrace and teach my kids and grandkids, and have done so my whole life long, and are what make us free.
I have found Catholics, Evangelicals, Baptists, Methodists, Lutheramns, and many others who recognize the perils we face and have stood should to shoulder, me with them, and they with me, on numerous occassions, several generated right here oin FR over the years, to unite together, pray together, and face the trials and evils of our day on any number of issues.
When coming together, supping together, praying toggether in the name of Christ for His blessings and help...you know, not a one of us in those instances denied or tried to tear down the fundmental faith in Christ we all shared...and they knew who I was, that I was LDS while we worked together. And we accomplished a lot of good as a result.
I simply ask for people who are willing to do the same. That's all. Your choice...as it should be.
It has nothing to do with my feelings. I merely pointed out there are significant differences between the theology of mormonism and historic Christianity. No Christian denomination accepts mormonism within Christendom, and throughout its history mormonism openly admitted it was vastly different from historic Christianity.
Using Christian terminology on your part doesn’t diminish the differences in interpretation. Mormons like you seem to want it both ways. You want to be accepted into mainstream Christianity, while at the same time you want you keep your exclusivity that mormonism is the only organization that knows the truth.
There can be NO spiritual unity between Christiantiy and mormonism, since their respective teachings are based upon vastly different interpretations. If you want political unity, then go spend more time on the political forums.
Jeff, I'm sure you're a tithing Mormon.
How is that relevant to what you just posted?
Because with your keyboard you extend an olive branch...yet with your wallet and bank accounts you join in a Mormon league which slanders the worldwide Christian church!
By parallel...Let's say, Jeff...
...a new church sprung up in your neighborhood.
...and your same-street neighbors were -- to fit your line above -- Catholic, Evangelical, Baptist, Methodist or Lutheran)...
...and this new church added "Revelation 23" to their Bible.
Let's also say some unnamed entities appeared unto their leader, and he reported as part of "Revelation 23": My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were ALL WRONG; and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were ALL corrupt; [Note to All: this in fact "Mormon scripture" -- Joseph Smith 1, vv. 18-19 in the Pearl of Great Price]
Furthermore, the leader of this "newbie church" claimed he was "lay[ing] the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" [Note to All: This is in fact "Mormon scripture" -- Doctrine & Covenants 1:30]
Furthermore, the leader of this "newbie church" claimed that this "Only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" was the "church of the Lamb of God" -- and he translated an ancient document which said: "Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." [Note to All: This is in face "Mormon scripture" - 1 Nephi 14:10 from the Book of Mormon]
Now let's say that this church grew to 14 million around the world -- and that about 5-6 of million of them tithed to spread the above message into over 100 different languages.
Fact: Mormon "scriptures" bash Christians 24/7 as the "church of the devil" ... a false and dead church...full of "corrupt" professing apostate believers who embrace 100% putrid creeds...
...and they do this in all kinds of languages every hour of every day.
Yet, Jeff, even though your tithe undergirds this 24/7 slander (on Lds.org; in Lds pubs; in Lds curricula) not a concern from you, Jeff? If not, why not? You don't seemingly mind if the Christian church is slandered in such an ongoing way?
So, Jeff...your keyboard speaks one thing; your wallet YELLS another.
And here you come across as someone who values integrity...somebody who integrates values to practices. Why would you give 10% of your lifetime income to an organization that slanders us in such ways? And commits that to hundreds of languages?
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
Jeff, do you realize both because of the Mormon leadership twisting and sheer negligence of teaching "grace" (and the Mormon overwhelming emphasis on obedience and works that earn your "spiritual bootstraps" style -- to use a fave Spencer W. Kimball phrase) how difficult it is for the average Mormon to even comprehend that word?
Hence, the lack of Mormon teaching on grace is one of two reasons why the ex-Mormon author mentioned in this other thread I posted today departed Ldsism: Local Author Weighs in on Debate About Mormons, Christianity
Once upon a time, from the BYU Religious Studies Center (here's the old-now-inactive link -- this pdf has been removed: http://rsc.byu.edu/rscFiles/pdf/newtestament.pdf)...Here, the author, Camille Fronk Olson, told of how difficult "grace" is as a concept for Mormons:
Although both ancient and modern scripture profess the necessity of Christ’s grace, the doctrine is often overlooked and misunderstood. For example, a missionary bore a powerful witness of Jesus Christ after being at the Missionary Training Center for only a week when she observed that she had never thought about the grace of Christ before beginning her mission. Since she had been at the MTC, however, she had thought of it and prayed for it every day. Why is the doctrine of grace so foreign to many of us? Why is it easy to recite from memory and explain that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:20) but difficult to teach “for by grace are ye saved through faith; . . . not of works, lest any man should boast”? (Ephesians 2:8–9). A man introducing himself as a member of the Church requested clarification on Nephi’s declaration, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23). After hearing so many differing explanations for the passage, he was puzzled."
Jeff, I know buried in the ton of Mormon legalism, tiny currents of "grace" can be found. I've seen it in 2 Nephi 10:24 in the Book of Mormon. I've seen it in a column by Mormon Jerry Earl Johnston...see below:
That's why we as Evangelicals stress…
…that God, not ourselves, is our source of righteousness (Romans 10:3)
…that Jesus Christ, not ourselves, is our source of righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30)
…that we’re saved by grace alone (Romans 11:6)
…that the true gospel is ALWAYS gracious & grace-filled (Acts 20:24)
…and that this all can be a point of agreement between Christians and transitioning Mormons…’cause even when it comes to alignment with God’s will, does not 2 Nephi 10:24 in the Book of Mormon say, “Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is ONLY IN AND THROUGH THE GRACE OF GOD THAT YE ARE SAVED.
88888
Jerry Earl Johnston's column from the Deseret News January '10:
From the Johnston column: Over the years, Stephen E. Robinson's "Parable of the Bicycle" has become almost as well-known in Mormon circles as the recipe for s'mores. It tells how a young girl wants a bicycle but doesn't have enough money for it. So her father tells her to put in what she can, and he'll make up the difference. As it turns out, she puts in a pittance compared to what her dad pays. The premise of the parable is simple. When it comes to salvation, we contribute and the Savior contributes, but we can't fathom how much more he gives than we do. So taking any pride in our contribution would be folly.
Well, we can't fully blame Robinson, the BYU prof, for being so way off-base in his theology. After all, Robinson just took it from both the Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants. In fact, two of the worst off-base Joseph Smith punditries occur in the Book of Mormon:
...ye are saved by grace, AFTER ALL YOU CAN DO." (2 Nephi 25:23) [Mormon, have you done ALL you can do? All YOU can do emotionally, physically, spiritually, etc.??? 'Cause this verse says free grace doesn't kick in UNTIL you do -- that's what the plain meaning of the words "AFTER all" equals.
And: "...may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their WORKS." (Helaman 12:24) [In other words, the Book of Mormon teaches that God gives gifts according to whatever "bicycle pittances" men give to God! That free grace isn't so free after all, because men have to earn it "according to their works."
From the Johnston column: Now comes author Brad Wilcox with a fresh take on the notion. In his new book "The Continuous Atonement," Wilcox writes: "I think of the Atonement more like this: Jesus already bought the whole bike. The few coins he asks from me are not so much to help pay for the bike, but rather to help me appreciate it, value it and use it correctly." I like that a lot.
At the time I noted how a tiny bit of light was finally kicking on for Mormons! Jesus Christ paid for 100% of our salvation! When He died on the cross, He used a common phrase that meant in their day, "Paid in full" when He uttered the words, "It is finished." Mormons like to quote Phil. 2:12: ...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, -- all the while ignoring the same sentence in the next verse: 13for it is GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU TO WILL AND TO ACT according to his good purpose. Who gets the credit & the glory? God!!! HE works in us! He enables our will & actions to be in accordance with Him!
From the Johnston column: Like many Mormons, I struggle with the idea that we must be "selfless" while keeping our own celestial glory in mind. I don't do that dance well. Also, when I think about immortality, eternal joy and infinite wisdom, I realize my contributions to such things amount to a drop of sweat in the ocean -- maybe a molecule of sweat. But Wilcox gives us some fresh perspective.
John Ortberg talks a little bit about this in his book -- not the Mormon struggle but something both Mormons and some in Christian churches struggle with as well. Ortberg says that a serving/helping pattern can actually become a "signature sin." Why? Because of what Johnston just wrote about -- this idea of being "selfless" running simultaneously with keeping our own celestial glory in mind -- a "dance" Johnston wonderfully concedes he doesn't "do...well." And, of course, if we think we "earn" celestial glory by our own worthiness, then it's a very dizzying dance! This is what I call "boomerang good works" and what Ortberg says people do because they think they can get something back for the good works they do.
From the Johnston column: Evangelicals often chide Mormons for thinking they have the power to assist in their salvation. They say it's arrogant of us. But Wilcox -- like Robinson -- shows that humility and gratitude are the only honest responses, since we have so little to do with redemption. More than that, I like the way Wilcox pulls the emphasis from our "contributing" to salvation to our "appreciating" it.
I'm glad to see some Mormons were indeed listening. (It's a good communication trait to have). And it's not only "arrogant," but is prideful to think that we are responsible not only for salvation, but earning godhood. Johnston's words: ...since we have so little to do with redemption" are indeed glorious words to read from a Mormon writer! (Good job, Jerry! Be a true pioneer & speak it loud and clear up & down the Wasatch Range!)
From the Johnston column: Wilcox is full of good news. We're not so much partners in salvation as beneficiaries. Being asked to keep the commandments isn't about "chipping in."..The old Protestant hymn had it right along: grace, however one defines it, will always be amazing..
Yes. Pure "beneficiaries" indeed.
From the Johnston column: The American preacher, Jonathan Edwards, had it backwards. We aren't "sinners in the hands of an angry God." We're potential saints in his loving hands.
Well, I knew I wouldn't agree 100% with Johnston's conclusions. Frankly, why does he pit one against the other? Men are both what Johnston describes here -- sinners in the hands of a wrathful God...AND potential saints in His loving hands.