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To: Jeff Head; Turtlepower; Godzilla
I accept His atonement and grace in my life...

Jeff, do you realize both because of the Mormon leadership twisting and sheer negligence of teaching "grace" (and the Mormon overwhelming emphasis on obedience and works that earn your "spiritual bootstraps" style -- to use a fave Spencer W. Kimball phrase) how difficult it is for the average Mormon to even comprehend that word?

Hence, the lack of Mormon teaching on grace is one of two reasons why the ex-Mormon author mentioned in this other thread I posted today departed Ldsism: Local Author Weighs in on Debate About Mormons, Christianity

Once upon a time, from the BYU Religious Studies Center (here's the old-now-inactive link -- this pdf has been removed: http://rsc.byu.edu/rscFiles/pdf/newtestament.pdf)...Here, the author, Camille Fronk Olson, told of how difficult "grace" is as a concept for Mormons:

Although both ancient and modern scripture profess the necessity of Christ’s grace, the doctrine is often overlooked and misunderstood. For example, a missionary bore a powerful witness of Jesus Christ after being at the Missionary Training Center for only a week when she observed that she had never thought about the grace of Christ before beginning her mission. Since she had been at the MTC, however, she had thought of it and prayed for it every day. Why is the doctrine of grace so foreign to many of us? Why is it easy to recite from memory and explain that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:20) but difficult to teach “for by grace are ye saved through faith; . . . not of works, lest any man should boast”? (Ephesians 2:8–9). A man introducing himself as a member of the Church requested clarification on Nephi’s declaration, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23). After hearing so many differing explanations for the passage, he was puzzled."

Jeff, I know buried in the ton of Mormon legalism, tiny currents of "grace" can be found. I've seen it in 2 Nephi 10:24 in the Book of Mormon. I've seen it in a column by Mormon Jerry Earl Johnston...see below:

That's why we as Evangelicals stress…
…that God, not ourselves, is our source of righteousness (Romans 10:3)
…that Jesus Christ, not ourselves, is our source of righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30)
…that we’re saved by grace alone (Romans 11:6)
…that the true gospel is ALWAYS gracious & grace-filled (Acts 20:24)
…and that this all can be a point of agreement between Christians and transitioning Mormons…’cause even when it comes to alignment with God’s will, does not 2 Nephi 10:24 in the Book of Mormon say, “Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is ONLY IN AND THROUGH THE GRACE OF GOD THAT YE ARE SAVED.

88888

Jerry Earl Johnston's column from the Deseret News January '10:

From the Johnston column: Over the years, Stephen E. Robinson's "Parable of the Bicycle" has become almost as well-known in Mormon circles as the recipe for s'mores. It tells how a young girl wants a bicycle but doesn't have enough money for it. So her father tells her to put in what she can, and he'll make up the difference. As it turns out, she puts in a pittance compared to what her dad pays. The premise of the parable is simple. When it comes to salvation, we contribute and the Savior contributes, but we can't fathom how much more he gives than we do. So taking any pride in our contribution would be folly.

Well, we can't fully blame Robinson, the BYU prof, for being so way off-base in his theology. After all, Robinson just took it from both the Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants. In fact, two of the worst off-base Joseph Smith punditries occur in the Book of Mormon:

...ye are saved by grace, AFTER ALL YOU CAN DO." (2 Nephi 25:23) [Mormon, have you done ALL you can do? All YOU can do emotionally, physically, spiritually, etc.??? 'Cause this verse says free grace doesn't kick in UNTIL you do -- that's what the plain meaning of the words "AFTER all" equals.
And: "...may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their WORKS." (Helaman 12:24) [In other words, the Book of Mormon teaches that God gives gifts according to whatever "bicycle pittances" men give to God! That free grace isn't so free after all, because men have to earn it "according to their works."

From the Johnston column: Now comes author Brad Wilcox with a fresh take on the notion. In his new book "The Continuous Atonement," Wilcox writes: "I think of the Atonement more like this: Jesus already bought the whole bike. The few coins he asks from me are not so much to help pay for the bike, but rather to help me appreciate it, value it and use it correctly." I like that a lot.

At the time I noted how a tiny bit of light was finally kicking on for Mormons! Jesus Christ paid for 100% of our salvation! When He died on the cross, He used a common phrase that meant in their day, "Paid in full" when He uttered the words, "It is finished." Mormons like to quote Phil. 2:12: ...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, -- all the while ignoring the same sentence in the next verse: 13for it is GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU TO WILL AND TO ACT according to his good purpose. Who gets the credit & the glory? God!!! HE works in us! He enables our will & actions to be in accordance with Him!

From the Johnston column: Like many Mormons, I struggle with the idea that we must be "selfless" while keeping our own celestial glory in mind. I don't do that dance well. Also, when I think about immortality, eternal joy and infinite wisdom, I realize my contributions to such things amount to a drop of sweat in the ocean -- maybe a molecule of sweat. But Wilcox gives us some fresh perspective.

John Ortberg talks a little bit about this in his book -- not the Mormon struggle but something both Mormons and some in Christian churches struggle with as well. Ortberg says that a serving/helping pattern can actually become a "signature sin." Why? Because of what Johnston just wrote about -- this idea of being "selfless" running simultaneously with keeping our own celestial glory in mind -- a "dance" Johnston wonderfully concedes he doesn't "do...well." And, of course, if we think we "earn" celestial glory by our own worthiness, then it's a very dizzying dance! This is what I call "boomerang good works" and what Ortberg says people do because they think they can get something back for the good works they do.

From the Johnston column: Evangelicals often chide Mormons for thinking they have the power to assist in their salvation. They say it's arrogant of us. But Wilcox -- like Robinson -- shows that humility and gratitude are the only honest responses, since we have so little to do with redemption. More than that, I like the way Wilcox pulls the emphasis from our "contributing" to salvation to our "appreciating" it.

I'm glad to see some Mormons were indeed listening. (It's a good communication trait to have). And it's not only "arrogant," but is prideful to think that we are responsible not only for salvation, but earning godhood. Johnston's words: ...since we have so little to do with redemption" are indeed glorious words to read from a Mormon writer! (Good job, Jerry! Be a true pioneer & speak it loud and clear up & down the Wasatch Range!)

From the Johnston column: Wilcox is full of good news. We're not so much partners in salvation as beneficiaries. Being asked to keep the commandments isn't about "chipping in."..The old Protestant hymn had it right along: grace, however one defines it, will always be amazing..

Yes. Pure "beneficiaries" indeed.

From the Johnston column: The American preacher, Jonathan Edwards, had it backwards. We aren't "sinners in the hands of an angry God." We're potential saints in his loving hands.

Well, I knew I wouldn't agree 100% with Johnston's conclusions. Frankly, why does he pit one against the other? Men are both what Johnston describes here -- sinners in the hands of a wrathful God...AND potential saints in His loving hands.

63 posted on 02/09/2012 3:23:21 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
Colo, thanks for those quotes. The only good "works" that matter are the ones that occur as a result of any of us taking on ourselves the countenance of Christ, in becoming, through His atonement and grace, His image in our hearts and minds. We become an extension of Him, doing and saying what He would do if He were here, and accomplishing His will on this earth. Then we do things because it is natural...it is "us", and not a "dance" worrying about whether or not we are "earning" anything. As soon as we do "good works" for ourselves, in any way, worrying about our own glory and what we are "earning," they are no longer "good" works and they are powerless to save us in any case. James said, "Faith woithout works is dead," and I agree with that, but I believe he was talking about works in just this vein. Christ said, "if ye love me, keep my commandments." This presupposes that we really love Him and have taken upon us His name. Then His commandments are not a chore...they are not a ladder to climb...they are who we are. True faith begets true good works. They are the result of a true conversion and of taking His grace truly upon us. The church actually teaches this...but because we are human, it is easy to mis-interpret and mis-construe what it means. This happens in all faiths, btw, and is certainly not something that is unique to LDS. We should try and serve one another...help one another...take one another's burdens on and lighten that of those around us...but not because we are trying to be better than someone else, and not because we are trying to climb some kind of ladder...but because in Christ we have been remade and are doing it as a result of His grace and our heartfelt conversion and desire to be in His service. I'm off to the other forum now and working to try and get a higher votre count here in Idaho for Santorum when the time comes.
65 posted on 02/09/2012 3:53:47 PM PST by Jeff Head (Liberty is not free. Never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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