Mary: Mother of God?

What Does the Bible say? ^ | 01/11/2012 | Bro. Lev Humphries,

[editor-surveyor]

Interesting that you found my response to the personal attack in post 683 to be so personal.

Truly amazing.

[caww]

Your Mother?.... Well now that's interesting...and it's not about your faith it's about Catholicisms false teachings which are an affront to ‘My Father’....checkmate.

[lastchance]

The quote you have highlighted is from the writings of St. Anathasius which should be read in their totality since you seem very confused by what he meant. This is the phrase in the original Greek "autos gar enenthropesen hina hemeis theopoiethomen" Which is more precisly translated as, "He became man in order that we might be divinized" (De Incarnatione 54 The meaning of which is explained rather well in this passage, "Man ever remains what he is, that is, creature. But he is promised and granted, in Christ Jesus, the Word become man, an intimate sharing in what is Divine: Life Everlasting and incorruptible. The main characteristic of theosis is, according to the Fathers, precisely “immortality” or “incorruption.” For God alone “has immortality”�ho monos echon athanasian (I Tim. 6:16). But man now is admitted into an intimate “communion” with God, through Christ and by the power of the Holy Spirit. And this is much more than just a ‘moral” communion, and much more than just a human perfection. Only the word theosis can render adequately the uniqueness of the promise and offer. The term theosis is indeed quite embarrassing, if we would think in “ontological” categories. Indeed, man simply cannot “become” god. But the Fathers were thinking in “personal” terms, and the mystery of personal communion was involved at this point. Theosis meant a personal encounter. It is that intimate intercourse of man with God, in which the whole of human existence is, as it were, permeated by the Divine Presence" The above is an excerpt, the complete article can be found here: http://benedictseraphim.wordpress.com/2006/03/16/st-gregory-palamas-and-theosis/

[boatbums]

Scripture never says that the glorified body of Jesus is no longer human. It doesn’t even say that it was glorified. In fact the only thing Scripture says is that He came into a locked room and St. Thomas touched Him where He was wounded in His hands and side. We also know that He ate with the Apostles.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 12:16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

John 20:26-28 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

[narses]

Are the paintings idols?

[D-fendr]

Ok, unless you claim to have an idol detector, you get a pass.

We’ll just have to wait for the expert.

[lastchance]

I don’t know what He looked like but for an artist to depict how he imagines Jesus looked is not the same thing as depicting an non existent false or demonic deity and adoring it with the worship due to God alone.

[gghd]

The passages in Acts that gave an example that we ALL need a Church to understand scripture was NOT cited by accident.

The Catholic Church teaches that Mary is Human & the Honor given to her is a ‘Devotion’ & it is so stated in the Catholic Catechism. Adoration (Worship) is for God. I know you do NOT get your understanding of the Catholic Church from its documents. There is a lot of misinformation about the Catholic Church. You can read about Martin Luther & Henry the VIII as they lied about the Catholic Church because they wanted to be ‘The Pope’ of their own church.

Mary is presented in Scripture as having Humility which is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Understanding of Scripture needs to be taught by the Church as it was the Church (first Apostles) the Holy Spirit descended upon> Pentecost Sunday.

Luke1: 19, when the Angel Gabriel greeted Mary, ‘She was greatly troubled at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this might be.’ Either someone has Humility or they don’t. The Church teaches this is True Humility =’Troubled’ that an Angel of God would speak to her. All through Scripture she has the ‘pure-beauty’ of True Humility.

True Humility says, ‘Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; be it done to me according to your Word.’ Those words do NOT come from a confused person. Please Pray on it. + We all need to pray for True Humility.

Have you ever listened to someone WITHOUT True Humility before God. They say things like, ‘God’s going to have to answer to us about the way things are going down here. I need to tell GOD how things should be fixed.’ A person WITHOUT humility would have replied to the Angel, ‘It’s about time God contacted me as I have a lot of good-ideas.’ You hear people say things like that ALL the time.

It’s possible to look on the Internet for the early writings of the Church Father’s. Protestants have collected the documents & translated them too. In the documents you’ll find, Mary has been considered always without sin since the foundation of the Church. Catholics would call it part of the Apostolic Tradition.

Protestants sometimes make an erroneous comment about The Pope in 1854 releasing a document about the Immaculate Conception. The name of Christopher’s ship in 1492 was ‘La Santa Maria de la Inmaculate Concepcion.’ You do NOT have to speak Spanish to translate that one. Please read the old documents from the beginning.

Jesus as True God & True Man was WITHOUT sin. Jesus had to follow the commands too. Jesus had to HONOR his mother. (Jesus as the MAN was obligated.) Jesus also being True God & True Man decided to REDEEM his mother BEFORE she was conceived. This is the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF MARY.

We will all stand before God on Judgment Day. We all know it’s not wise to call someones’ mother a ‘sinner’ here on earth; especially if that someone is our ‘best friend.’ It might >not be wise to go up to Heaven calling Jesus’ mother a sinner. (Talkin’ trash about someones’ mother be fightin’ words!)

Don’t tell me what you would do on this example. BUT, please tell your mother what you would do! You are walking along and there is a mud-puddle & you know YOUR MOTHER will fall into it. Do YOU ‘save’ her BEFORE she falls into the mud-puddle? or do you WAIT until she falls INTO the mud-puddle & then pull her out of the mud?

We Christians know Jesus HONORED his mother & kept her from falling into the ‘mud’ of SIN & redeemed her before she was conceived. One of the Titles of Mary is: ‘Ark of the New Covenant’ as she carried Jesus in her Womb. Jesus as God created a perfect place to dwell. YES, Mary, like all of us needed a Savior & God ‘Saved’ her before she was conceived. The Mystery of God & His plan for our Salvation.

[smvoice]

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them..” Exodus 20:4,5.

[narses]

OK, what are YOU claiming? That Catholics worship idols?

[lastchance]

I’m trying again cause I totally messed up the paragraph breaks.

The quote you have highlighted is from the writings of St. Anathasius which should be read in context since you seem very confused by what he meant.

This is the phrase in the original Greek “autos gar enenthropesen hina hemeis theopoiethomen” Which is more precisly translated as, “He became man in order that we might be divinized” (De Incarnatione 54 ) The meaning of which is explained rather well in this passage,

“Man ever remains what he is, that is, creature. But he is promised and granted, in Christ Jesus, the Word become man, an intimate sharing in what is Divine: Life Everlasting and incorruptible. The main characteristic of theosis is, according to the Fathers, precisely “immortality” or “incorruption.” For God alone “has immortalityho monos echon athanasian (I Tim. 6:16).

But man now is admitted into an intimate “communion” with God, through Christ and by the power of the Holy Spirit. And this is much more than just a ‘moral” communion, and much more than just a human perfection.

Only the word theosis can render adequately the uniqueness of the promise and offer. The term theosis is indeed quite embarrassing, if we would think in “ontological” categories. Indeed, man simply cannot “become” god. But the Fathers were thinking in “personal” terms, and the mystery of personal communion was involved at this point. Theosis meant a personal encounter.

It is that intimate intercourse of man with God, in which the whole of human existence is, as it were, permeated by the Divine Presence”

The above is an excerpt, the complete article can be found here:

http://benedictseraphim.wordpress.com/2006/03/16/st-gregory-palamas-and-theosis/

[narses]

OK, what are YOU claiming? That Catholics worship idols?

[AnalogReigns]

The only thing Jesus got from Mary was a body. Every Human Being has received a sinful nature from their parents with one exception: Jesus was not human. He was divine God in a flesh body.

The whole paragraph also is not true, and not according to the Chalcedonian standards which ALL ORTHODOX (Protestant (including Baptists, Bible, Independents, etc...), Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox...) adhere to.

Clearly this Bible teacher has never had a systematic theology class, or just didn't pay attention--or is just a cultist.

To say Jesus was just an corpse (body) animated by God, and not human is TOTALLY heretical--for then, He could not of died for our sins...as only one fully human could die for us...just as only one (also) fully divine could bear our sin...and rise from the dead. Jesus MUST be fully God, and fully human--two natures in one person...for the cross of salvation to work.

This heresy--that Jesus had only a human body, and no human soul (i.e. not fully human)--has a name...and existed at the time of the Council of Chalcedon (AD 400s): It is called APOLLINARIANISM, and was first condemned at the Council of Constantinople in AD 381.

Did Mary mother God? In a sense...of course...as Jesus was fully divine from the moment of his FULLY HUMAN (miraculous/virgin) conception. That is full blown Christian orthodoxy.

Was Mary somehow the origin of God the Son? No...as God the Son is eternally begotten...beyond all time...from God the Father, and God the Son, like God the Holy Spirit, and God the Father, three persons in One Being--the holy Trinity--has subsisted forever.

Does that make Mary some semi-divine, sinless human being? No. The Bible nowhere says, or even hints at that. As a matter of fact, Mary & Joseph seem to have blundered in leaving Jesus behind when he was 12 (an offense one could be arrested for today...)(Luke 2:41-49). An honest mistake, and not huge sin, but none-the-less...to lose track of protecting and caring for God's Son? Not a good thing.

Jesus stuck with His Father though, in the Temple...and everything turned out very well.

[caww]

Death through Eve, Life through Mary.

Wrong on both counts and False Teaching...

It is written....For as 'in Adam' all DIE, so 'in Christ' all will be made Alive.....1 Corinthians 15:22

It is written...Just as the result of 'one trespass' (thru Adam) was condemnation for all men, so also the result of 'one act' of righteousness (thru Christ) was justification that brings LIFE for all men....Romans 5:18

And again written....For just as through the disobedience of 'the one man' (Adam) the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of 'the one man'(Christ) the many will be made righteous....Romans 5:19

And again it is written....For since DEATH came through 'a man', the RESURRECTION of the dead comes also through 'a man.'......1 Corinthians 15:21

Jesus said to him,... I am the way, the truth, and the LIFE: no man comes to the Father, but by me....John 14;6

Mary wasn't on the Cross Jesus was.

So nope...Sin came thru Adam...Life thru Christ

....

[caww]

Doesn’t God use you in His work?..... His Spirit fills all Christians...and we’re certainly still “stained”.

[dangus]

Yes, the bible does say, "Ye shall be gods." But that work is not completed. And by "partake," is meant, "to participate, to be given a portion." But we will not be gods in the Mormon or pagan sense. There will be no planets to rule, or forces of nature to control. Those who are saved will be gods in the sense that they shall never die, they shall be indefatiguible and perfected (as opposed to He who is perfect from the beginning).

The notion of deification is unsettling to the modern ear, because it suggests a separate will which can oppose God. That is why context is everything; the passage you cite in the Catechism teaches that godliness is attained through sacrificing one's own self, not glorifying it:

456 With the Nicene Creed, we answer by confessing: "For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit, he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man."

457 The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who "loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins": "the Father has sent his Son as the Saviour of the world", and "he was revealed to take away sins":70

Sick, our nature demanded to be healed; fallen, to be raised up; dead, to rise again. We had lost the possession of the good; it was necessary for it to be given back to us. Closed in the darkness, it was necessary to bring us the light; captives, we awaited a Saviour; prisoners, help; slaves, a liberator. Are these things minor or insignificant? Did they not move God to descend to human nature and visit it, since humanity was in so miserable and unhappy a state?71

458 The Word became flesh so that thus we might know God's love: "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him."72 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."73

459 The Word became flesh to be our model of holiness: "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me." "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me."74 On the mountain of the Transfiguration, the Father commands: "Listen to him!"75 Jesus is the model for the Beatitudes and the norm of the new law: "Love one another as I have loved you."76 This love implies an effective offering of oneself, after his example.77

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

Oh, and do check ou the references:

70 I ⇒ Jn 4:10; ⇒ 4:14; ⇒ 3:5.

71 St. Gregory of Nyssa, Orat. catech 15: PG 45, 48B.

72 ⇒ I Jn 4:9.

73 ⇒ Jn 3:16.

74 ⇒ Mt 11:29; ⇒ Jn 14:6.

75 ⇒ Mk 9:7; cf. Dt 6:4-5.

76 ⇒ Jn 15:12.

77 Cf. ⇒ Mk 8:34.

78 ⇒ 2 Pt 1:4.

79 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939.

80 St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.

81 St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.

82 ⇒ Jn 1:14.

A brief explanation of the Catholic position: http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a124.htm

[D-fendr]

The notion of deification is unsettling to the modern ear

And any of the modern notions unsettling to the early theologians. Imagine St. Irenaeus in a pew at Lakewood Church…

:)

[gghd]

Thank you for being a ‘True Defender of the Faith.’ I’m being a wimp of the faith & avoiding the quarrel about ‘idols.’ But I’m willing to comment to you as you may be able to explain it better to Protestants.

First: All I know about Christianity comes from staying awake in Church & paying attention as I’m obligated to do. Also, let me quote the Bible: Proverbs 20: 3 ‘Keeping away from strife is an honor for a man. But any fool will quarrel.’ You defend the faith withOUT quarreling.

I’ve listened to the Great Preacher in the Southern Baptist Church that is able to speak to all Christians,> The Great Reverend Billy Graham. He describes how he, as a young man, turned his life over to Jesus Christ. Billy Graham said he attended a Revival meeting one night & his heart was touched by Jesus Christ.

Billy Graham came home to his parents house, went up to his bedroom, and KNELT at his bedside. Billy Graham said while knelling at the side of his bed, he looked out his window to the trees across the field in the moonlight & and then up at the moon shining through his window. While knelling, the Great Billy Graham prayed to God & turned his life over to Jesus.

The description of how Billy Graham received his ‘call’ from God also describes why Catholics knell in front of statutes & paintings in a Catholic Church. Catholics know that it is just a place to knell when worshiping the True God in Heaven.

Ministers in Protestant churches say things like: ‘We rest in Jesus; We rest from our works when we totally rest in Jesus.’ YET, we Catholics know that Billy Graham did >NOT think his bed was Jesus. & We know Billy Graham was >NOT worshiping his BED as he knelt there. Why can’t Protestants listen to Billy Graham & understand it is possible to knell in front of something & still worship the True God in Heaven?

Billy Graham that night also looked at the ‘Trees’ when he prayed. (Some folks do worship trees.) Yet, from all of Billy Graham’s statements, we know Billy Graham does not worship trees. Why can’t Protestants listen to ministers like Billy Graham & understand that Catholics too can also look at something & be worshiping the True God in Heaven.

Billy Graham also looked at the Moon when he prayed to God. We know he does not think the Moon is God even though there really were Moon-worshippers in the world. What is going on with Protestants that they do NOT even listen to their own Great ministers explain how it is possible to look at something & still worship True God.

The whole ‘Idol’ business by Protestants about the Catholic Church seems contrived & just basically hatred. It’s possible to read the description of the Ark of the Covenant & the Angels on it. The truly Great Art works of Western Civilization have been part of the Heritage of the Roman Catholic Church & truly a gift to the entire world.

Somethings are just a mystery to me & maybe you can explain it to Protestants. Bless you for being a defender of the True Faith. Maybe, we should tell Protestants to listen to Billy Graham & how it is possible to knell next to something (like a bed) & not worship it.

[Tramonto]

>>If mary and the Saints can't pray for us then you cajn’t either<<

Find one example from scripture of deceased people being asked to pray for us.

1Samuel28

[Tramonto]

What point do you think Jesus was making in this passage from Matthew 22?

41Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42“What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.” 43He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying,

44‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET”’?

45“If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his son?” 46No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.