Posted on 01/06/2012 8:46:23 AM PST by colorcountry
A crusade (of sorts) is moving across Facebook. It is targeting pages that are critical of Mormonism. Who the crusaders are is unknown, but it seems reasonable to suggest that they may be Latter-day Saints.
The crusade is aimed at silencing those who disagree with Mormonism. In a broad sense (and from the perspective of many Mormons), this has some biblical support:
“For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.” (1 Peter 2:15)
The Facebook crusader’s strategy, however, does not involve “doing good,” nor does it seek to expose what some Mormons would call “the ignorance of foolish people.” The Facebook crusade instead is employing oppressive tactics in order to have critical discussion shut down and/or removed from public view.
Though a bit more complicated than I’ll describe here, the program goes something like this: A site critical of Mormonism is identified by the crusaders; this group of people begin a flurry of reporting, flagging the page’s status updates, videos and comments as “hate speech”; Facebook’s automated response sends warnings to the page owners and Admins, removes flagged “offensive” content, and eventually disables (temporarily) the personal accounts of those who receive sufficient warnings.
Trying to look at things from a Mormon perspective, I can acknowledge how some things posted may be reasonably understood as offensive to a Mormon (e.g., a discussion about sex; namely, the physically sexual relationship between Heavenly Father and Mary. In fact, this Mormon teaching is offensive to me, too!). Due to “one or more reports,” Aaron received a Facebook warning at Christmastime related to his audio series on the Virgin Birth:
But most of the things that have been flagged in this crusade (that I am aware of) reflect mere disagreements between Christians and Mormons regarding spiritual issues. For example, this (subsequently flagged) Facebook comment was posted on December 9, 2011 as part of an ongoing conversation:
“God has provided these tools to validate His truth. While there is an element of faith, I’d say that faith is based on things that are unseen, BUT NOT PROVEN false. Science and history have definitively proved the Book of Mormon not to be [of] God. The Bible holds its own.”
Two more examples, these removed by Facebook:
“Which Jesus, Elizabeth? The created brother of satan or the Un-Creator of all things? God?”
“oh! but one last thing Bobbi…how did you check to make sure that the answer to your prayer was truth?”
According to Facebook policy, the use of a person’s name in comments, even in a response to a comment that person may have previously posted, can be construed as “harassment.” That explains Facebook deleting some of the comments, but it does not explain the initial reporting of these conversational comments. Only a crusade designed to itself harass and silence Mormonism’s critics makes sense.
On December 26th a Christian friend received a warning from Facebook for posting a link to Aaron’s video project, God Never Sinned – Do Mormons Agree? Facebook removed the entire post and threatened the owner of the page with possible loss of his Facebook account. Facebook stated that the video link had been reported, and anything that is “hateful, threatening, or obscene” is not allowed. Yet the God Never Sinned video consists entirely of Mormons responding to a question that clarifies their own individual beliefs. Why flag that as hateful?
All of this sounds a bit un-American, or at least unlike the America envisioned by her Founding Fathers, who placed a premium on freedom of speech and the lively, open exchange of ideas. In fact, as others have noted elsewhere, these crusaders on Facebook seem to be following in the footsteps of Mormonism’s founder. When Joseph Smith was confronted with dissident voices in Nauvoo, Illinois, rather than answer them, he did his best to silence them by destroying the newspaper and press that gave the critics a platform.
Yet another aspect of this crusade is equally troubling. Assuming that the crusaders are Mormons, it must be noted that Mormons expend a lot of energy trying to convince the world that they are Christians (that is, followers of Jesus Christ). But their disregard for biblical teaching regarding how to deal with critics demonstrates a different spirit.
The Bible, recognized by Christians to be the very Word of God, does not tell followers of Christ to silence critics by taking away their voices.
The Bible tells us of the benefits of a “soft answer.” It proclaims, “To make an apt answer is a joy to a man, and a word in season, how good it is!” It teaches that the righteous think about how to answer, as opposed to the evil responses of the wicked (Proverbs 15:1, 23, 28)
The apostle Paul talks about “persuading” people of the truth while being “able to answer those” who are mistaken in their spiritual focus. He says, “Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.” (2 Corinthians 5:11-12; Colossians 4:6)
And, of course, there are the familiar instructions for God’s people to “contend” for the faith, be ready to “give a defense” of that faith, while “patiently enduring evil, correcting [spiritual] opponents.” (Jude 3; 1 Peter 3:15; 2 Timothy 2:24-26)
Christians are not supposed to bully those who disagree with them by forcing them into silence. Christians are supposed to answer the objections and persuade opponents by speaking the truth, hoping that the lost and deceived will “come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil.”
This is what the Christians on Facebook (and here on Mormon Coffee) are endeavoring to do. What, then, is the aim of the crusaders?
As one of MrReaganaut’s taglines states...
Battlestar Galactica: Another Testament of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
Insulting Calvinists, on the other hand, could once get you beheaded, burned at the stake, banished or hanged as a witch. [Vigilanteman]
You don't have to reach back into some distant European-oriented century to discover how thin-skinned Mormons are.
I've got this one Mormon book published in 2000. Published by the Lds church itself. They cite a former Lds "prophet" saying:
"When we lose the Spirit, our priesthood authority is taken from us...Then we begin to persecute the saints, which means criticize, and finally to fight against God..." (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee, p. 91)
Can you believe that? To the Mormon, if somebody dare criticize a Mormon, they are -- by they're own definition supplied, supposedly engaging in outright "persecution."
You can't get any thinner skin than that!
Even worse is that if every perceived verbal slight is tantamount to "persecution" in this country, then they don't recognize overseas REAL (other country) persecution of Christians even if their lives were to depend upon it!
It's a sheer posture of privilege.
If they think criticizing in a free country like the U.S. = persecution, they don't know what the meaning is of the word. Period.
The way Mormon leaders play with words and redefine them is outright maddening!
And it's this kind of lack of accountability of Mormon leaders by their grass roots that shows how gullible they all are.
Well, read my comment #62. The LDS CHURCH -- from the top down -- is calling any criticism of Mormons "persecution."
It's in this kind of atmosphere created by the Lds church that such a "persecution" complex arises...and... where it seeks to root out, political correctness-like, any and all critiques by labeling them as either "persecution" or "hate-filled."
The Mormon leadership is guilty of this -- and your lack of accountability of your leaders is extremely sad.
Get a hint: Tell them to stop redefining perfectly good words!
my bad,
Well welcome n00b, perhaps you can provide FACTS rather than your bloviations.
And true Christianity negates slavery and doesn't withhold the true Gospel from those caught in such a system.
You can't say that about Mormonism -- based upon Lds "Doctrines & Covenants" 134:12...can you?
Here's Joseph Smith on "reaching out" to slaves -- Aug. 17, 1835:
Smith at that time was churning out new “Scripture.” Smith was taking aim at new converts. But in that time, did he believe the Mormon “gospel” to be aimed at slaves? (No, not unless express “permission” was granted by their “owners”).
Could you imagine a verse still applicable today—one similar to the Mormon scripture of Doctrine & Covenants 134:12—which would tell you in effect that yes, the gospel was for women who are sexually trafficked--but only if their Pimp-owner says "Yes"???
I mean, imagine if you will, for a moment, that you are the God of the universe; God of every planet; God of the earth; Creator of every person. Imagine for a moment you are speaking forth universal eternal truth. And then imagine that someone claims you (as God) made the following “Scriptural” statement:
”We believe it just to preach the gospel to the nations of the earth, and warn the righteous to save themselves from the corruption of the world; but we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude.”
D&C 134:12 is LDS “Doctrine” that has never been removed or rescinded!!! This passages makes it quite clear – in contrast to the apostle Paul who vied for the religious freedom of Onesimus while treating him as a full Christian brother and encouraged Philemon to do the same--somehow, LDS think that "religious freedom" applies to everyone except slaves!
D&C 134:12, written in 1835 pro-slavery America, made it quite clear that instead of the Mormons having a universal god who issued eternal truth applicable to all cultures, he is instead an American-sounding god who speaks only in King James English & was beholden to the American slavery industry.
D&C 134:12 "settles" the issue for the Mormon: Are slaves & trafficking victims worthy of the "gospel?" LDS Answer? Nope! "neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them..." says LDS "Scripture.
And why not? Well, says D&C 134:12: We don't want ya ta meddle with the Mastuhs' business “property,” or to say it as precisely as LDS "scripture" says it: nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life...
(Nah. We can't have unhappy slaves or trafficking victims now, can we? Too disturbing to their "stations" of life, eh?)
Now what are the ultimate reasons for this again? D&C 134:12 provides the answer:
Reason #1: ...such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust... (There ya have it...wouldn't want to be "unjust" by giving slaves the gospel & baptizing them, would ya?)
Reason #2: ...and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude. (And, of course, the "closer": Wouldn't want to disturb the peace & quiet of slavery-sanctioning governments, now would ya?)
Others can cite what some 19th century Christian leader said about slaves all they want. The fact is that such a statement was not regarded -- and IS NOT regarded -- as carrying the authority of "Scripture."
That can't be said about D&C 134:12...can it, Jeff?
The absolute NERVE of Mormons to shove these words into the mouth of God! Talk about shame!
"There is no Mormon doctrine that says we will become “gods of our own planets.” A search of LDS.org, which includes all of the church lesson manuals, all talks given in church conferences, and all magazines published by the LDS church shows that there are no instances—zero—where it is taught that we will be “gods of our own planets.”
This is simply the same lie that Richard Bushman, the Visiting Professor in Mormon Studies at Claremont Graduate University, and Kent P. Jackson, Associate Dean of Religion at Brigham Young University, told Maureen Dowd in October 2011. As I noted, there are eighteen places where it either appears in current Church Educational System educational guides (allon the www.lds.org site) for children four through eleven, seminary (ages fourteen to eighteen), college age, celestial marriage guides; Ensign magazine (on the www.lds.org site); a Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency [Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, Charles W. Penrose] and the Twelve (on the www.lds.og website); the current seminary.lds.org quotes for high schoolers; the current edition of LDS Gospel Principles (the 'Sunday School' book for adult converts, which was also the Sunday School book for all adult classes, 2009-2011); prophet Spencer Kimball's speech "Receive Truth", printed on the www.lds.org website . . . and multiple other sources on the www.lds.org website.
And I have cites to books written by LDS prophets, or quotes from LDS apostles in LDS magazines . . . and on and on.
I don't have access to all of the LDS seminary and institute materials because I'm a gentile and you must have a LDS password to access the student learning sites and the teacher and educator guide sites.
But it's not a mis-statement - it's a lie to say "that there are no instances—zero—where it is taught that we will be “gods of our own planets.”
Unless you consider these types of quotes to be wholly unrelated:
"Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness, to govern such a world with all of its people."
Or:
…these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods.’
Frankly, many of the quotes are more specific than those.
I won't argue whether the theology is valid; that's a matter of religion. But just don't create a website that's supposed to tell the truth and then engage in blatant lies. Because mormonvoices.org knows the media is not going to research this and they can lie with impunity. Which, apparently, is what they do. How am I supposed to respect the allegedly "well-documented answers" of mormonvoices.org when this is the kind of material the site prints?
Once, yes. Are you saying that tourists (modern wagon trains) through Utah are in danger of being slaughtered (for being non-Mormon) today? Don't pretend that Mormon history isn't bloody.
Oh, and I'm not a Calvinist.
The Muzzies are doing the same thing on Facebook.
Facebook just bows down to everything that bullies them.
Well, since you claim it’s just opinion, prove it.
He won’t be back. Possibly a second account, maybe a retread but I’m thinking sleeper account.
Thanks Larry, I am not here to try and contend...the spirit of contention and anger that IMHO pervades these threads sometimes is absent of very much that us laudable. I do, however, on accassion, feel compelled to bear my own witness and let it stand for what it is.
Many people here know me personally...have worked with me on numerous conservative issues and know my heart and beliefs. I am not ashamed of what I have done or what I believe and I appreciate your speaking up in that regard.
At the same time, other folks are absoultely free to believe as they wish and say what they want. I leave it to others to read both sides and judge for themsleves.
A lot of folks, good Christians all from every denomination and plenty who are not denominational at all and basically following the dictates of their own hearts when it comes to Christ and God, have prayed for me and their faith has helped me in my life and struggles with cancer.
I appreciate and thank every such one, even if they do not agree with me on interpretations associated with all th details of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Chrsit. He is mighty to save, He is the atoner and redeemer of us all and if we accept His gift and truly convert to Him with our hearts, it will be obvious in how we live and act, and it will save us. Nothing else will. That is the key doctrine of salvation and I embrace it 100%...again, even if others for whatever reason feel that somehow they cannot allow me it.
I have no problem professing Him in my own life and the miracles and His will that have left me here on this earth for a bit longer...and I promised Him, and promised myself that on behalf of all those who prayed for me in His name that I would profess Him whenever given the chance, and moved upon by the Holy Ghost to do so.
I am so grateful that He will be the judge and that He knows each of our hearts perfectly.
God’s best and speed to you my friend.
Welcome n00b...check out the religion forum rules at
I suggest that if you plan to do battle, arming yourself may be helpful.
Since you are back, would you please address my statements and answer the question I posed to you?
Thank you in advance.
Why are you LDS again? Seriously, because what you claim to believe isn’t LDS doctrine and you should know that.
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