Pope highlights Mary's role as 'woman of the apocalypse'

Catholic News Agency ^ | 12/28/11 | Benjamin Mann

[narses]

“It would be a foolish and dangerous thing to announce ones denomination...”

Really? Why? How are truth and honesty anything except a sign of brotherhood? How can they be “a foolish and dangerous thing”? Am I “foolish” or taking “dangerous” risks by acknowledging my Catholic faith?

[caww]

Not so...we are to follow and emmulate Christ...Mary is respected and of course honored in the role she played as Jesus’s earthly mother....but that;s as far as it goes or should go. All these statues and great parades and kissing her, bowing down to these idols..praying to her and other departed saints, is just plain wrong and God said not to do such things as the pagans do...instead the catholic church brought these rituals and this idolatry right thru the front door with a welcome mat!..and built more on top of it ever since.

Mary doesn’t lead us to Jesus at all...she’s in heaven with the Lord.....it’s the work of the Holy Spoirit which brings us to Christ. Just as is clearly stated in the Scriptures and experienced by those who know the Lord and His workings.

The catholic church needs it’s membership to worship and adore her as much as they need the priesthood....remove these two practices and the church will fall....and the vatican will fight tooth and nail to keep them established...Just as Jeffreys does to keep his followers in subjection and other organizations who generate vast revenues to it’s leadership.

[RnMomof7]

Nope..not my OPI of the scriptures.. no role of priesthood ever taught in the NT

Greg Dues has written Catholic Customs & Traditions, a popular guide (New London: Twenty Third Publications, 2007). On page 166 he states, "Priesthood as we know it in the Catholic church was unheard of during the first generation of Christianity, because at that time priesthood was still associated with animal sacrifices in both the Jewish and pagan religions."

"A clearly defined local leadership in the form of elders, or presbyteroi, became still more important when the original apostles and disciples of Jesus died. The chief elder in each community was often called the episkopos (Greek, 'overseer'). In English this came to be translated as 'bishop' (Latin, episcopus). Ordinarily he presided over the community's Eucharistic assembly."

"When the Eucharist came to be regarded as a sacrifice, the role of the bishop took on a priestly dimension. By the third century bishops were considered priests. Presbyters or elders sometimes substituted for the bishop at the Eucharist. By the end of the third century people all over were using the title 'priest' (hierus in Greek and sacerdos in Latin) for whoever presided at the Eucharist."

[metmom]

According the the Catholic church, yeah they are.

Catholic opinion means nothing.

[RnMomof7]

Well, Mary WAS chosen by God, and Jesus revered her, so should we do any less? No need to worship her, but we should love, revere, and want to emulate her, because she will always lead us to Jesus.

Luk 11:27 ¶ And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him,Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mary is a beloved sister in Christ... she is not my mother or my co redeemer, or my intercessor ... The word of God leads us to Jesus ...

[narses]

Yep, a new, modern made up idea. ALL of the Apostolic Churches, those in union with Rome and those not have a Sacramental Priesthood. The Copts, the Orthodox, even the Malabar Catholic Church founded by the Apostle Thomas. Even after most of a thousand year separation they held to the faith and the Apostolic traditions.

That you and a small splintered group disagree (and yes splintered, unable to agree on baptism, on what day the Sabbath is, on whether Christmas is pagan or holy) is of little moment. The facts are that you represent a modernist and small faction that is without substance or standing.

In fact, many of you here are even unwilling to be honest about what sect of the protestant heresies you adhere to, in fear that your divisions will become all too clear. Thus you end up allied with the UFO types, the LDS types, the folks who deny the Trinity, even those who deny the Divinity of Christ. An odd coalition, held together apparently only by a common antipathy to the Catholic faith, an antipathy all to often soaking in falsehoods, bigotry and anger.

You might try being honest about what your faith traditions are and you might embrace the very Christian ideas of honesty, charity and humility. I hope you do.

[aruanan]

According the the Catholic church, yeah they are.

Catholic opinion means nothing.

And what Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli expressed about God and his role in sin is worse than nothing.

[RnMomof7]

The greek word for elder is different than the greek words for priest.. archiereus which translates into “High Priest” and hiereus which translates one that OFFERS SACRIFICES.

The role of the priesthood in scripture was to offer sacrifices.. That is what a priest does in scripture.. God set aside one tribe to be priests, they were not granted any land as God was their inheritance .

The greek have a couple words for priest

hiereus

1) a priest, one who offers sacrifices and in general in busied with sacred rites
a) referring to priests of Gentiles or the Jews,
2) metaph. of Christians, because, purified by the blood of Christ and brought into close intercourse with God, they devote their life to him alone and to Christ

and archiereus

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) chief priest, high priest
2) the high priests, these comprise in addition to one holding the high priestly office, both those who had previously discharged it and although disposed, continued to have great power in the State, as well as the members of the families from which high priest were created, provided that they had much influence in public affairs.
3) Used of Christ because by undergoing a bloody death he offered himself as an expiatory sacrifice to God, and has entered into the heavenly sanctuary where he continually intercedes on our behalf.

Neither role is given in scripture for the new church ..

Christ fulfilled the role of Priest on the cross.. there is no more sacrifice for sin

He is now our High Priest..

The word for elder is presbyteros here is the GREEK definition
1) elder, of age,
a) the elder of two people
b) advanced in life, an elder, a senior
1) forefathers
2) a term of rank or office
a) among the Jews
1) members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
2) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God

Now the Holy Spirit knows the difference in the greek words.. there is no priesthood provided for in the NT church.

There was no priests in the new church, it was about 300 AD before the first priesthood appeared..

The Jewish priesthood was a type of Christ fulfilled at the cross.. As if to punctuate that the Jewish priesthood was destroyed by God in 70 AD..there was no longer a need for the type..or as Hebrews puts it

Hbr 4:14 ¶ Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

[narses]

There was no priests in the new church, it was about 300 AD before the first priesthood appeared..

Not so much. Your opinions are yours, but making up facts is dishonest.

[caww]

Of course "really"....as if you weren't aware.... That you would ask 'why' reveals a lack of understanding regarding the dynamics of internet usage.

Furthermore it isn't about truth or honesty and certainly nothing about 'brotherhood'... do you imagine manipulating verbage minced as questions isn't obviously seen as baiting to obtain the desired results you might be anticipating for doing so?

Of course it's dangerous to proclaim specific information online and that before a worldwide audiance...and certainly not the church you attend on a relgious thread that's as combative as this. Yes...one would be a "fool" for doing so...and taking a risk certainly would apply.

Just as a side note....Once pride/arrogance or hautyness starts to manifest into an individuals actions or behaviors, then their judgment will start to cloud..... And once their sense of proper judgment starts to cloud up, they will no longer be able to separate truth from error....... The only truth they will be able to see is what they perceive the truth to be, not what God’s real truth is, or what anyone else may try and tell them what is right

[count-your-change]

Well said. To it's credit the NAB has pretty much stopped translating presbyteros as priest.

[caww]

The facts are that you represent a modernist and small faction that is without substance or standing......In fact, many of you here are even unwilling to be honest about what sect of the protestant heresies you adhere to,.... in fear that your divisions will become all too clear

Thus you end up allied with the UFO types, the LDS types, the folks who deny the Trinity, even those who deny the Divinity of Christ.

An odd coalition, held together apparently only by a common antipathy to the Catholic faith, an antipathy all to often soaking in falsehoods, bigotry and anger.

WoW!.....What a contorted, twisted, manipulated, and completely tangled mess of false statements that is...and this without having a clue what the denominations or churches the posters belong to...

Let me just say this again as a reminder for your future posts which might be created, next time you think you need to preach to the masses, might be a good idea to consider how your coming off to others:

Once pride/arrogance or hautyness starts to manifest into an individuals actions or behaviors, then their judgment will start to cloud..... And once their sense of proper judgment starts to cloud up, they will no longer be able to separate truth from error....... The only truth they will be able to see is what they perceive the truth to be, not what God’s real truth is, or what anyone else may try and tell them what is right.

[caww]

There was no attempt at either.

[caww]

Net....They know the ground they tread here...we all do...and it can be combative on occassion....some tend to enduce it for their sheer enjoyment....most do not. We know who they are who the latter.

As for Pearls...there is One of Great Price...and He can stand the heat.

[Rashputin]

"There was no priests in the new church, it was about 300 AD before the first priesthood appeared.

Oh, so Scriptures were conveniently altered to go along with what was happening around 300AD?

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

So are you saying those portions of Hebrews that clearly contridict your fantasy intepretation of Scriptues are lies or just errors? Or, is it that those who apply The Lego Block Method of Scripture Interpretation think they can pick any verses from anywhere and then stick them together to mean whatever they like the same way Humpty Dumpty said words mean exactly what he wanted them to mean?

The folks who love to make up their own religion by stringing verses together to mean whatever they like always ignore the very simple, very clear, Scripture. Like the portion of Jude that warns against the heresy of "the priesthood of all believers" and clearly identifies it as something those of us under the New Covenant need avoid:

Jude 1:10 But these men blaspheme whatever things they know not: and what things soever they naturally know, like dumb beasts, in these they are corrupted.
Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! For they have gone in the way of Cain: and after the error of Balaam they have for reward poured out themselves and have perished in the contradiction of Core.

Everyone realizes that whatever turns them on is exactly what the "Proddy" folks find in the Scriptures which is why "Proddy" fantasy based responses more often than not begin with, "that's what the Scriptures say, but that's not what they mean". Explaining that what the Scriptures say isn't what they really mean is about seven eighths of what the "Proddy" crowd calls "interpretation" and "apologetics". Just like the Mormons and JW crowd, the anti-Catholic crowd, the queer marrying and queer ordaining "Christian" churches, and the abortion excusing "forgiven before it even happened" crowd, all pretend to cloak themselves in Scriptures by reinterpreting and twisting Scriptures to suit their own personal preferences. To such folks, Scriptures are just a string of pearls to play with in their hog wallow.

Those who claim to be Christian but who are really first and foremost anti-Catholic always give away their real beliefs by denying the power of Christ. They deny Him by denying that He delegated authority to the Apostles, built His Church on the Apostles, and protected His Church for the two thousand years since He founded it, even though that's exactly what Christ Himself said He would do. Those who deny that Christ did what He said He would do are not Christians even if they’ve been brainwashed into thinking they’re following Christ. That’s why it will be so sad when such folks are told, “I never knew you”. They will have spent their lives always learning but never coming to knowledge of the Truth.

[presently no screen name]

Anguish? If truth appears as anguish to you - check your oil, newbie.

[marbren]

When we as Christians stop calling sinful actions against God "behavior" or "diseases"...

That is a good point. I do equate beastiality pedaphilia and homosexuality in the same boat. I should have called it sinful behavior. I was an alcoholic that was saved by God's grace. My behavior comments were more about how homosexuals think they are a minority like African Americans.

then we just might one day lead those who practice these sins to repent and find In Christ the forgiveness they need.

Do we do this work? I sort of rest and let the Holy Spirit do it.

As long as we excuse the actions for something other than what they are in God's eyes.. these people will have no hope....and most will die in their sin.

I agree it is our sin when we enable sinful behavior in others and we need to repent.

[metmom]

Hebrews 9:24-28 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Hebrews 10:8-18 8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”

17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

[narses]

Of course it's dangerous to proclaim specific information online and that before a worldwide audiance {sic}..

ROTFLMAO, that is not what was asked. Just as I do not publish which parish I belong to, I never asked nor expected you to identify by location (e.g. The First Baptist Church of Biloxi at 2nd and Main) where you went to services, rather the question is what great harm is there in a poster identifying themselves - as xzins does, for example - by denomination, sect or confessional for the purpose of honest debate?

Straw Man (also "The Straw Person"): The fallacy of setting up a phony version of an opponent's argument, and then proceeding to knock it down with a wave of the hand.

[netmilsmom]

First of all, I’m not Net, that is my daughter.

Second, I don’t really remember addressing you caww.

Third, anyone who swings his/her dogma around in a joyous victory dance, slashing and burning all around in the name of evangelism is getting nothing but satisfaction. No teaching and no converting. Pride is one of the seven deadly sins. Many here forget it.
Self-Righteousness is not pretty. And that goes for both sides, those that fuel the fire and the fire itself.

Since I have Killfire, I can block posters. Buh-bye.