Vanity: Beware of False Prophets, False Prophecy

Excerpts from http://bible.cc/matthew/7-15.htm ^

[Jim Robinson]

Excerpts:

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Kings 13:18 The old prophet answered, "I too am a prophet, as you are. And an angel said to me by the word of the LORD: 'Bring him back with you to your house so that he may eat bread and drink water.'" (But he was lying to him.)

Jeremiah 23:16 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.

Ezekiel 22:27 Her officials within her are like wolves tearing their prey; they shed blood and kill people to make unjust gain.

Daniel 11:34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them.

Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matthew 24:11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

Luke 6:26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.

John 10:12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.

Acts 13:6 They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus,

Acts 20:29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

Romans 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

2 Timothy 3:5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Revelation 16:13 Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Revelation 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

New International Version ©1984 by Biblica

[CodeToad]

“bigotry “? We have shown the proof of Mormons using words but attributing strange and different meanings to them in order to deceive, which is lying, and you call that bigotry?

We have left Mormons alone in a live and let live fashion, but the Mormons have started a national advertising campaign of deception and lying and so we simply called them out on it and you get upset? Big deal. If you don’t like the reality change it, but don’t continue to say we must accept the lies. We won’t.

[reaganaut]

Sandy, because you haven’t gotten your way you are not resorting to insulting our host?

NOTE TO ALL: This is actually a very Mormon pattern of behavior that we have seen a lot of lately, sadly...

1) Tell people all about how wonderful the Mormon church (notice CHURCH not Christ) is.

2) Spoon feed them spiritual milk and deny or change the subject or refuse to answer questions about LDS ‘meat’ doctrines. Dodging questions hoping they will go away is SOP.

3) If they start to get uncomfortable, they ‘bear their testimony’ using words that sound Christian but have different meanings (and yes they know LDS have their own meanings).

4) If challenged further, they start attacking those who speak out against them, leveling all kinds of charges (couldn’t live the gospel, didn’t want to tithe, in it for money, lying, bigotry, hatred, wanting to bring back the inquisition, wanting to kill them).

5) If that goes nowhere, they play the ‘victim card’ and go on about how they are hated and persecuted and there is a history of that in Mormonism, and it just proves Mormonism is ‘true’...

6) Finally, they get angry, pick up their toys, and go home (like GMR). They still haven’t answered the questions or dealt with the issues, they just claim to be offended and shut down rather than really try to work through the issues with Mormonism.

Now, if somewhere along those lines (which happens all the time) you can pique the Mormon’s interest, get them to question it themselves, or why they don’t have a good answer to the question, then over half the battle is won.

Sandy, Resty, GMR, we don’t hate you, we love you enough to want better for you that what Mormonism can give.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

X

[caww]

why doesn’t the Bible contain the Gospel of Peter or the Gospel of Thomas, the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepard of Hermas,

Not proven inspired... Didn't past the tests.... failed to go with the natural flow of scriptures...too many fairy tales...and the list goes on and on..pick any you might choose.

We have all we need in the written word as it stands. All the issues created by men to doubt the completion of the scriptures as they stand is to cause doubt of the whole...because it works to create doubt. The enemy of mens souls knows if he can cause ment to question thus..he has won. Cults do this all the time...so do false religions.

[caww]

why doesn’t the Bible contain the Gospel of Peter or the Gospel of Thomas, the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepard of Hermas,

Not proven inspired... Didn't past the tests.... failed to go with the natural flow of scriptures...too many fairy tales...or they aren't real works to begin with but manufactured by men who have a need for signifigance...if indeed they exist at all....and the list goes on and on..pick any you might choose.

We have all we need in the written word as it stands. All the issues created by men to doubt the completion of the scriptures as they stand is to cause doubt of the whole...because it works to create doubt. The enemy of mens souls knows if he can cause ment to question thus..he has won. Cults do this all the time...so do false religions.

[caww]

Sandy, Resty, GMR, we don’t hate you, we love you enough to want better for you that what Mormonism can give.

They know this which is why they always come back to the threads...always. Though they may manufacture another reason in order to justify to themselves why they return.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

“not proven inspired” how is the inspiration of Hebrews proven?

“didn’t pass the tests” what are the tests and who gave the tests?

[caww]

I see you picked one...the fact that you did so evidences your doubts and or your agreement that pretty much any reason can be manufactured to discredit God for not giving us the the truth He wants us to know.

The problem however is not what isn’t in the scripture you might think belongs there, or perhaps find from some other source which would justify to yourself beliefs you want to have included,... the problem is not accepting what is there as it is and learn from it.

There’s a reason why cults and false religions want “added” books, added traditions to be included....and it is not to learn to know Christ better and Love Him more....it is for selfish ambitions and that which substantiates what they “otherwise” desire beyond what He’s given.

[MarkBsnr]

“not proven inspired” how is the inspiration of Hebrews proven? “didn’t pass the tests” what are the tests and who gave the tests?

Whatever the god in the mirror believes today.

[Scoutmaster]

there was only one gun . . .

Restornu:

Just another official LDS Church Educational Sysem source, although I'd suggest you read the fourth paragraph.

Did you notice neither of those was an 'anti-" source (which I've learned means "anything that's not an LDS source that hasn't been repudiated even though, technically, it exists." Those sources are fairLDS.org and the Church of Latter-Day Saints Church Educational System.

I have nothing against you personally and wish you good will. On the issue of whether one or two pistols were smuggled into the Carthage Jail, however, we’ve run into a quintessential non-LDS/LDS exchange:

• Non-LDS poster makes a factual statement based entirely on LDS sources and research;
• LDS poster says non-LDS poster is wrong and throws in an unnecessary personal slur, but includes no support for the statement that non-LDS poster is wrong;
• Non-LDS poster offers additional factual support and research for claim taken from LDS sources (including hyperlinks to www.lds.org and www.fairlds.org as necessary) and/or factual, researched sources;
• LDS poster still says non-LDS poster is wrong and refuses to consider that what he or she has been taught by untrained clergy or other teachers may not be right, or that something unpleasant may be in official LDS source.

I am somewhat offended that you implied I violated the Boy Scout Oath and specifically said I “poisoned the water” by saying a LDS member smuggled two pistols into the Carthage Jail.

I can’t say I am surprised that you continue to state that there was only one pistol despite the fact that I have quoted to the contrary from the official LDS History of the Church, Vol. 6, Chapter 34, page 617, and linked you to contrary information on the fairLDS.org website (a website I believe you site and I know that Saundra Duffy has recommended for those seeking the truth on LDS issues). However – and I mean this with respect – I realize you may have been taught to rely upon your testimony, to listen to what unpaid and untrained leaders have taught you, and not to question or to research facts that may cause you to question your faith.

This would explain why, as you admitted, you had never heard of Cyrus Wheelock, the LDS Elder who smuggled a six-shooter into the Carthage Jail for Joseph Smith. Jr. Most of the time I find that, as a historian and reader of LDS of official LDS history and other peer-reviewed history, I’m much more familiar with LDS history and teachings than LDS members. It’s just a fact.

To support your claim that there was only one gun, you quoted LDS Elder John Taylor. Note he didn’t say there was only one gun. He simply mentions the gun that Joseph Smith had. He never says anything about Hyrum Smith’s gun or whether Hyrum had one. I’ve said that Joseph and Hyrum had one pistol each – my quote from The History of the Church said that Joseph had a six-shooter and Hyrum had a single-shot. That makes two guns. I’ve never claimed Joseph Smith had a pistol in each hand, nor does The History of the Church claim that.

Also note that when you quoted LDS Elder John Taylor, you cited Jeff Lindsay’s lightplanet.com. You may not have noticed, but Jeff Lindsay’s John Taylor’s testimony comes from . . . The History of the Church 7:99-108.

In other words, the same source I cited as saying that both Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith had a pistol. Are you telling me that one page of the History of the Church is wrong but another is right? Doesn’t it make more sense that one page says (a) Joseph and Hyrum each had a gun (two guns), and (b) John Taylor said Joseph Smith fired his gun (there are still two guns, but there’s only need to mention Joseph’s, because that’s the only gun Taylor is talking about at the time?)?

And while we are mentioning John Taylor and the History of the Church, and his statements about his time with Joseph Smith in the Carthage Jail, let’s not forget that he talks about Joseph Smith giving one of the jail boys money money and sending him out for wine and tobacco (you’ll notice again that the official LDS History of the Church has two slightly different stories whether you read History of the Church Vol. 6, page 616, or Vol. 7, page 101 – but you’ll note that John Taylor specifically eenies that they took the wine for a sacrament, he says they drank it to “revive their spirits.”):

But back on the subject of the two guns that you say didn’t exist, pages 281 and 282 of the official Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Church Educational System Church History Instructional Manual teach young LDC members:

”At the jail, the four brethren sweltered in the sultry afternoon heat. Joseph gave Hyrum a single-shot pistol and prepared to defend himself with the six-shooter smuggled in that morning by Cyrus Wheelock.”

Source (for those of you like me who aren’t LDS, that history is not apparently authorized for view by gentiles; it’s hidden behind the LDS Seminaries and Institutes password-protected site that’s solely for authorized LDS teachers of seminar to LDS students, protected behind multiple directories that gentiles are not authorized to view; I didn’t hack a thing – it’s in public internet space and I . . . ummm . . . just ‘managed’ to incorporate it into my research, which is difference between doing thorough research and just listening to what somebody told you).

Do you believe that part of Taylor’s testimony?

Restornu, the LDS CES even includes a photo for LDS youth in seminary, so they know what the TWO pistols smuggled into the Carthage Jail for Joseph and Hyrum Smith looked like:

Now, the CES didn’t just make this stuff up (although I can pretty well substantiate that a lot of LDS history is made up – such as the 60,000+ words in Joseph Smith’s personal history changed after his death); they took it from the History of the Church. I’ve already given you the cite to this from the History of the Church.

Now at this point, I admit that I was wrong. LDS Elder Cyrus Wheelock only smuggled one of the guns. You remember how you weren’t familiar with Cyrus Wheelock? Are you familiar with Joseph Smith’s personal secretary, LDS Elder John S. Fulmer? I knew his name and I knew he visited Smith in the Carthage Jail. So lets go to History of the Church, Vol. 6, Chapters, 33-34, pages 602-622. I’ll pick up after Smith’s secretary, John S. Fulmer has just made his last visit to Smith in the Carthage jail:

”9:40 a.m. … [W]heelock prepared to visit the prison. The morning being a little rainy, favored his wearing an overcoat, in the side pocket of which he was enabled to carry a six shooter, and he passed the guard unmolested. During his visit in the prison he slipped the revolver into Joseph's pocket. Joseph examined it, and asked Wheelock if he had not better retain it for his own protection.

This was a providential circumstance, as most other persons had been very rigidly searched. Joseph then handed the single barrel pistol which had been given him by John S. Fullmer, to his brother Hyrum, and said, "You may have use for this." Brother Hyrum observed, "I hate to use such things or to see them used." "So do I," said Joseph, "but we may have to, to defend ourselves;" upon this Hyrum took the pistol.

And Chapter 35 makes it clear both Hyrum and Joseph had guns, and both pulled the trigger of their respective guns:

”5:00 p.m. … Hyrum was retreating back in front of the door and snapped his pistol, when a ball struck him in the left side of his nose, and he fell on his back on the floor saying, "I am a dead man!" As he fell on the floor another ball from the outside entered his left side, and passed through his body with such force that it completely broke to pieces the watch he wore in his vest pocket, and at the same instant another ball from the door grazed his breast, and entered his head by the throat; subsequently a fourth ball entered his left leg.

A shower of balls was pouring through all parts of the room, many of which lodged in the ceiling just above the head of Hyrum.

Joseph reached round the door casing, and discharged his six shooter into the passage, some barrels missing fire.

Why do you think you were taught by LDS teachers or friends that it was a non-LDS guard, and not two LDS Elders who smuggled pistols into these prisoners? Is it possible that saying that LDS Elders smuggled the guns shows the LDS Church in a bad light? Would this violated Boyd K. Packer’s concept of “faith-promoting history”?

Were you ever taught about how eager Joseph was to get that gun? Because the part of the History of the Church you quoted makes it clear he was eager to get it.Why do you think you weren’t taught that both Joseph and Hyrum were packing smuggled guns and that they both fired them?

restornu? Do you now believe me, a non-LDS amateur historian, that TWO LDS Elders, Cyrus Wheelock and John S. Fulmer independently smuggled a gun into the Carthage Jail to Joseph Smith?

Do you agree with me, the LDS History of the Church, two different teaching materials issued by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Church Educational System, fairLDS.org’s photos, the photos of the LDS CES, that there were TWO guns smuggled into the Carthage Jail?

Or do you want to believe what some untrained LDS member or teacher with a vested interest in faith-promoting history – who wasn’t interested in the truth, but merely in painting the rosiest picture possible for the LDS faith, once said?

Two LDS smugglers, restronu.

Two guns, restornu.

Two. I don't want to be a pain, but I'm getting tired of this game where people who posts facts are accused of telling lies. They're facts. They're LDS facts. They may not be pretty, but there's a lot about LDS history 'that ain't pretty.' The LDS Church would be must more respected if it admitted the elephants in the room rather than trying to claim they weren't there.

[Scoutmaster]

Well, now.

If you’ll mosey on over to the LDS Seminaries and Institutes Portal, you’ll find that we gentiles aren’t wanted. In fact, you need an authorized LDS account to enter.

I don’t believe the Methodist, Presbyterians, Baptists, Episopalians, Lutherans, or Cathlics have secret histories about their churches that they hide from other faiths.

Well, I didn’t hack or anything, but it turns out when I was doing research on LDS history regarding the number of guns smuggled into the Carthage Jail I discovered that one of the subdirectories that’s uploaded isn’t private. What to do, what to do. And that subdirectory contained perhaps the world’s most faith-promoting history (faith-promoting = ‘white-washed’) for LDS youth ages 14-18 that you can imagine.

Did you know that the Nauvoo Expositor was a public nuisance? Just stated as a fact. No discussion. Why, of course it had to destroyed. And Porter Rockwell was unjustly accused of trying to kill the Governor (and there’s no mention of Rockwell killing a couple of hundred other men). The Kirtland Anti-Banking society? Why, everybody was doing it! The word “persecuted” in its various forms is used as if there were a sale at Big Lots, with no examples.

So before somebody in SLC makes these go *poof*, I suggest you download them as HTML pages for your amusement. And then you’ll know why some kind and friendly people at FR have no idea about what actually happened in American or LDS history. Because goodness knows, if there’s such as thing as lying by omission . . . meet history by omission:

Chapters 1-5
Chapters 6-10
Chapters 11-15
Chapters 16-20
Chapters 21-25
Chapters 26-30
Chapters 31-35
Chapters 36-40
Chapters 41-45
Chapters 46-49

[Scoutmaster]

Dear MHGinTN:

I saw your ;^) Placemarker ...

I've been doing many things since November 21, 2011, when I first asked the question. And, of course, I've been doing many things since I asked the question on this thread. Waiting around for an answer isn't one of them.

[Colofornian]

Did you know that the Nauvoo Expositor was a public nuisance? Just stated as a fact. No discussion. Why, of course it had to destroyed. And Porter Rockwell was unjustly accused of trying to kill the Governor (and there’s no mention of Rockwell killing a couple of hundred other men). The Kirtland Anti-Banking society? Why, everybody was doing it! The word “persecuted” in its various forms is used as if there were a sale at Big Lots, with no examples.

LOL

Typical Mormonist "faith-promoting" revisionist & just plain brazenly incomplete "history."

Btw...the links for chapters 6-10; 16-20; 26-30; 36-40 all are dead links.

[Elsie]

Wow!

They could have marched right OVER my property in INDIANA, according to THIS map.

Which isn't too accurate, as Belleville, Indianapolis and Greenfield are on the old National Road - US 40.

(If that dotted line actually IS the NR...)

[Elsie]

Btw...the links for chapters 6-10; 16-20; 26-30; 36-40 all are dead links.

[Elsie]

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

i asked two questions that apparently you are unable to answer. i am not suprised.

[reaganaut]

Can you try posting those links again for the chapters? Some are not coming up.

Please.

[reaganaut]

tweaked it and got some working links...

http://www.ldsces.org/inst_manuals/chft/chft-06-10.htm

http://www.ldsces.org/inst_manuals/chft/chft-16-20.htm

http://www.ldsces.org/inst_manuals/chft/chft-26-30.htm

http://www.ldsces.org/inst_manuals/chft/chft-36-40.htm

[Scoutmaster]

Chapters 1-5
Chapters 6-10
Chapters 11-15
Chapters 11-15
Chapters 21-25
Chapters 26-30
Chapters 31-35
Chapters 36-40
Chapters 41-45
Chapters 45-49

I think it worked this time.