Posted on 11/28/2011 4:12:34 PM PST by Saundra Duffy
"The Mormon Defense League" is out. "MormonVoices" is in.
That change became official Monday, when the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research announced a name change for its website aimed at defending the teachings and practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
FAIR is a non-profit organization that, according to a press release, is operated by "self-motivated Mormons who seek to improve the public understanding about the church" through conferences, workshops and scholarly articles posted on the organization's websites. While it is dedicated to "providing well-documented answers to criticisms of the doctrine, beliefs and practices" of the LDS Church, it is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with the church.
(Excerpt) Read more at deseretnews.com ...
“you cant even come clean about which Christ you believe in”
The One who is my Savior and the Savior of all mankind.
If I wanted to - which I don’t - but if I really wanted to hurt some group of people - I could dig up ancient history about every single religious sect ever known to man or beast - and go out of my way to make a mockery of the whole thing.
But I do not want to hurt anyone.
In other places, FAIR links to articles from FARMS or similar sources which, if read, disagree with the findings of another LDS historian on the grounds that the history is not "faith-promoting" history. When it comes to Todd Compton, FAIR cites his book In Scared Loneliness: The Plural Wife of Joseph Smith favorably to make certain points, but also lists the book among those it warns people not to believe. As support, it cites many FARMS and FAIR reviews, all of which argue that Compton, an LDS member, is not faithful enough in his history and gives interpretations to history that are not "faith-promoting."
FAIR frequently warns readers that sources should not be trusted and footnotes the warning with a hyperlink - which goes to a blank stub where FAIR eventually intends to explain why a source shouldn't be trusted.
FAIR also dismisses 19th century documents from non-LDS sources, saying they would be biased, but accepts all 19th century documents from LDS sources as true without any consideration that they may also contain some bias.
FAIR accepts only faith-promoting sources and disclaims history as contained in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, or Sunstone, even if peer-reviewed and published by respected LDS historians.
Finally (and there are many other way in which FAIR falls short of being a legitimate research site), there are multiple topic where FAIR states a conclusion along the lines of "to reach a conclusion other than this, one would have to question the unimpeachable character of Joseph and Hiram Smith. It's a fact that their character cannot be questioned, therefore the answer is definitely X."
Whether you are LDS, anti-LDS, or simply someone interested in objective history (as I am), FAIR is not a reputable source. Although there are many other reasons not to trust FAIR, there are several
That wasn't an incomplete thought; it was just stupidity in action and a failure to proof. Sorry.
The One who is my Savior and the Savior of all mankind.
Ah, you failed yet again to tell us which Christ, Saundra. Every single time I've asked, you avoid answering which Christ you believe in...
... and I must conclude you are apparently either embarrassed or humiliated to admit in public that you left the eternal Christ, Who is neither created nor made and substituted the mormon Jesus, who is a mere creature.
Saundra, if you know the Bible, then you also know this is idolatry - a corruption of the image of God into that of a creature.
Are you embarrassed to admit you believe in a non-Biblical Christ???
If MORMON 'scripture', teachings, facts and quotes appear on FR; we will ignore them.
Of course: You are a MORMON.
Saundra Duffy and her group are not Christians.
"Sorry GOD; but we HAVE to obey the Powerful Government, and not you!"
~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President
2 Peter 2:1-3 1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. |
FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR, and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice. |
Great. Now you have awakened the CopyPaste crowd.
Yup; you're a good MORMON all right!!
Too bad you're female; or you could slither your way into management.
No; wait! You is not BIC - so DOUBLE sorry.
In case you don't recognize the title of this post, it is part of President Hinckley's answer to a reporter's question that appeared in the August 4 1997 issue of Time magazine. The reporter referenced the King Follett discourse. The answer supplied and the manner in which it was delivered caused the reporter to draw some false conclusions about a very important doctrine.
In that discourse, the prophet Joseph Smith said, "If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visibleI say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in formlike yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man." (See also D&C 130:22)
The article referred to Lorenzo Snow's couplet, "As man is now, God once was; as God now is, man may become." The reporter said, "God the Father was once a man as we are. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing." President Hinckley was then asked, "Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?"
The bothersome reply
"I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don't know a lot about it, and I don't think others know a lot about it."
The reporter wrote, "On whether his church still holds that God the Father was once a man, he sounded uncertain." That's an unfortunate conclusion. Of course I wasn't at the interview and neither were you but I'll bet the reporter mistook careful thoughtfulness for uncertainty. This doctrine is indeed deep territory and not something that is taught outside the LDS Church.
An earlier and similar interview
The San Francisco Chronicle, published an interview with President Hinckley in April of 1997. The reporter asked, "There are some significant differences in your beliefs. For instance, don't Mormon's believe that God was once a man?" President Hinckley responded, "I wouldn't say that. There is a little couplet coined, 'As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.'"
He then said, "Now that's more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about." The reporter pounced on this. "So you're saying that the church is still struggling to understand this? " President Hinckley responded, "Well, as God is, man may become. We believe in eternal progression. Very strongly."
President Hinckley's response
President Hinckley said in October 1997 General Conference: "I personally have been much quoted, and in a few instances misquoted and misunderstood. I think that's to be expected. None of you need worry because you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine.
"I think I understand them thoroughly, and it is unfortunate that the reporting may not make this clear. I hope you will never look to the public press as the authority on the doctrines of the Church." And there lies the whole point of my post today. Some members did indeed become a little concerned by the exchanges they read in the press reports of those interviews.
Does the Church still teach this?
I know this is old news but it still bothers some people when they discover the anti-Mormon attacks floating around on the Internet. President Hinckley was right. We really don't know much about how our Heavenly Father became a God. The idea that he passed through a mortal probationary state like you and me is certainly not documented in any scripture of which I know.
However, it is still taught. In the Gospel Principles manual in the chapter on exaltation we read, "Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46)."
Summary and conclusion
I don't know why this should bother anyone. The doctrine is true. Joseph Smith knew a whole lot more about this than I do. President Hinckley also knew a whole lot more about this doctrine than he was willing to share with reporters who did not have the background to understand it. It must have been difficult for President Hinckley to hold back and not teach it in those interviews.
It didn't bother me when I read the interviews back in 1997 and it doesn't bother me today. However, I know it does bother some people. We each have trials of our faith. I have never depended on an intellectual understanding of the gospel in order to accept it and live it. There are some things that just can't be fully comprehended without the temple, prayer and faith.
There are some things that just can't be fully comprehended without the temple, prayer and faith.
Saundra Duffy wrote:
“If I wanted to ... I could dig up ancient history about every single religious sect ever known to man or beast.”
Go ahead, dig. To be sure every religious group has a few warts, because it is composed of people, all of whom are descendants of fallen man.
But I think you are missing the point. We are talking about doctrine/teaching, official doctrine/teaching. So, go ahead, dig. You will find nothing that even begins to compare to the outright silliness of LDS doctrine/teaching.
You mean PD didn’t give you the WHOLE list??
Too bad you FAIL to agree with past MORMON Leaders, Sandy.
Can you not feel the hot breath of APOSTACY on the nape of your neck?
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
I sure HOPE she does NOT!!!
Hebrews 6:1-6 (KJV)
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Copy The Prophet
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