Posted on 11/26/2011 3:33:54 PM PST by Iggles Phan
My problem with the 'Rapture' (pre-millenial; pre-tribulation) teaching is that it forces its adherents to actually REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.
That's correct.
In the 'Rapture' (or Dispensational) scheme the believer is asked to take the Person of Daniel's 70th Week (Who is Jesus Christ at the Cross) described in Chapter 9, verse 27a:
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ..."
... and reverse this 'he' to mean a 'future Antichrist'.
Are you confused?
Is this Jesus Christ or Antichrist?
1. The Historic View.
This view is typified by the 1599 Geneva Bible notes. These are the notes of John Calvin, Miles Coverdale, and John Knox to name a few.
1599 Geneva Bible Notes on Daniel 9:27a:
"By the preaching of the gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection."
It's pretty clear that the Reformers believed that Christ was the Person of Daniel's Great 70th Week.
2. The Modernist View (Dispensational).
In contrast however, compare this historic view to the Dispensational view typified in the Ryrie Study Notes (1978). Look who the modernists assign to this very same Person in Daniel 9:27a:
"The prince of verse 26, the Antichrist previously introduced in 7:8, 24-26, who will make a pact with many (of the Jewish people) at the beginning of the tribulation period. But in the middle of the week (i.e., 3 1/2 years later) Antichrist will break his covenant and desecrate the Temple by demanding worship of himself in it."
The difference couldn't be farther apart.
Historic Christianity says that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week AT THE CROSS, but Rapture Christianity (Dispensationalism) says that the Devil fulfills it in a 're-built' temple.
Therefore, Dispensationalism is no less than a frontal assault on the Cross of Christ. It reverses Jesus Christ to the Devil. It is malicious and a pernicious doctrine.
Remember, this Dispensational view was NEVER known until 1830. That's why it is a Modernist view. It was invented by JN Darby and popularized by CI Scofield, two con-men to Christianity.
In the 20th century, carpetbaggers such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack (and Rexella) Van Impe, John Hagee and others have made fame and fortune off of this con game. They have marketed this 'Rapture' theology like a cheap box of laundry detergent on TV and radio, and with videos and books.
My hope and prayer is that the Church starts to wake up out of its slumber and starts challenging its pastors, ministries, and teachers. The Cross of Christ is at stake here!
For the Glory of Christ Jesus. Amen.
Yer doggone right I'm a defeatst and an escapest...I as well as all other Christians are going to escape the wrath to come...
Dispensationalists have actually played right into the NWO’s hand. Their propaganda mills have worked overtime to defeat the once Victorious Church with such nonsense as the Scofield and Ryrie bibles, The Late Great Planet Earth, Left Behind, etc.
You don't have to worry about it...Your Church will play a significant and prominent role from here on out to Revelation 17...
Christian ... one thing should be clear about God’s Word.
There are a great many clear things 'in' God's word...And after you completely fumbled Daniel 9, there's likely nothing in God's word that is clear to you...
Your view is common amongst those who study 'about' God's word...We on the other hand study God, in His word...
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
Not the tiniest punctuation mark of The Word of God will fall to the ground.
ALL WILL BE FULFILLED TO THE LETTER.
THX
434 posted on December 1, 2011 6:49:02 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin’ INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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....and YOUR point is?
and your point is?
INDEED.
THANKFULLY, They all end up in Heaven.
Of course the Capital letter ‘P’ Prince in verse 25 is Jesus. But this is not the issue.
The issues is verse 27, and a comparison with verse 26.
The issue is the correct identification of Jesus in the first half of verse 27 (in the midst of the 70th Week).
Dispensationalists say that’s impossible. But it is not impossible. By comparing verse 27 to 26, we see that it is not only possible, but Scripturally consistent.
Read this again until you get it.
Your basic argument says that the ‘he’ for verse 27 is the same throughout the entire verse, and since the second half of this verse deals with the ‘overspreading of abominations’, then this must be the ‘antichrist’.
However, such an argument excludes context. If one were to apply that same logic to the previous passage, verse 26, then one would have a conflict, because the first half of the verse is clearly the Messiah, and the second half of the verse is the ‘people of the prince’.
Let’s look at this:
26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah (A) be cut off, but not for himself: ... and .... the people of the prince (B) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
NOTICE THAT THE SUBJECT CHANGES AFTER THE CONJUNCTIVE!!!
27: And he (A) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (A) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ... and ... for the overspreading of abominations he (B) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
LIKEWISE, THE SAME PATTERN IN THIS VERSE!!!
Note that both of these verses, 26 and 27, are CONJUNCTIVE (e.g. two complete sentences, with two different subjects, joined together by the conjunctive ‘and’) in their construct.
So, the first half of the conjunctive (in both verse 26 and 27) deals with the Messiah (A), while the second half of the conjunctive (in both 26 and 27) deals with a completely different subject, e.g. the ‘people of the prince’ (B).
Therefore to be consistent, one would expect each verse to resemble an A-B, A-B construct.
Dispensationalism violates this Scriptural pattern by using an A-B, B-B construct!
“Abraham’s seed is Jesus Christ...The only (way) we can be Abraham’s seed is to be ‘in Christ’...”
Answer:
We agree.
As Paul said to the Galatians in that very same sermon, there is neither Jew or Greek in Christ.
“Your view is common amongst those who study ‘about’ God’s word...We on the other hand study God, in His word...”
Answer:
You raise a classic ‘we’ versus ‘them’ cannard.
Who is with ‘us’ on Jesus fulfilling Daniel’s 70th Week?
Jesus Himself, the Apostles, the Early Church, every great Reformer: Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, Knox, Coverdale, Wesley, Whitefield, the Puritans, and even the great Baptist soul-winner of London, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, to name a few.
Who is with ‘you’ on Antichrist fulfilling Daniel’s 70th Week?
Modernists like Irving, Darby, Scofield, Ryrie, Lindsey, LaHaye, Van Impe, Hagee, and Camping.
So, if you want to compare company, go ahead.
I’ll take ‘my’ group over ‘yours’ any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.
I don't mean this to sound somewhat terse as often happen in my writing but what specifically are you saying? What is the meaning of a "nation". If you are saying the physical nations then, yes, God chooses one nation over another nation all the time. The scriptures teaches us that there were times when God raised up the Babylonians and the Assyrians over Israel just as much as He blessed them.
Somehow people have this romantic sense of Israel that is nowhere to be found in scripture. The nation of Israel, according to scripture, had trouble right from the start when they appointed King Saul (as God warned them they would). King Saul hunted down the innocent David, David (as good as he was after God's own heart) committed murder and adultery, and King Solomon allowed the sacrificing of children to the pagan god Molech. After that Israel and Judah split and at time warred against each other until God wiped them out except for a remnant. And when that remnant reformed they became the Sadducees and Pharasees who our Lord Jesus admonished.
All the nation of Israel serves to show is how much we, as Christians, are like Israel. God chosing, loving and caring for us. We in a state of constant rebellion. We are Israel. This phrase carries much good connotations of God's blessings but it also carries the connotation that we (Christians) are a rebellious and stiff neck people.
If you believe that God favors Israel spiritually then no, He does not. We are the holy nation of God (1 Peter 2:9). God does not bless those who reject His Son but His wrath rest on them.
You should know by now that we can (and should) be able to respectfully disagree without throwing each of us under the bus. I see this a lot with Republicans who have one favorite candidate in mind and are willing to toss all the other good conservative candidates out the window. (They can toss out Mitt Romney.)
This is why I normally don’t like discussing the end times because people get defensive. The end times is a very complex thing. I enjoy your posts Quix and your witness and testimony. I just happen to think you’re incorrect on this matter. You happen to think that I’m wrong on this. All this says is that God hasn’t illuminated this part of scripture to one or both of us.
But someday you’ll see how right I was. ;O)
Why are you following those who try to make the AntiChrist out to be the Messiah?
WELL PUT.
STILL LOVE YA LOTS.
THX.
26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah (A) be cut off, but not for himself: ... and .... the people of the prince (B) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
What can I say but, 'oh brother, you got to be kidding me'...
The people of the Messiah are going to destroy the city and the temple???
That's your context???
Sorry Bud, there's far too much scripture that you can't wrest that confirms that the prince is not the Messiah...
I seriously doubt that those guys are your group...And what's their age got to do with it???
One thing I can see tho...They had no need to know of the Rapture...The beginning of the prophecies to be fulfilled closest to the Rapture started when Israel became a Nation again in 1948...
I don't know if these Godly guys you referenced believed in the Rapture...I don't know if God revealed it to them...
But I do know that I do see the Rapture in the scriptures...I also see the world around me and know that the Rapture is near...Very near...
I also know that it has been over 6000 years (6 days) since the Creation and the 7th Day God rested...We are starting into the 7th Day and God will give us a rest for a thousand years (1 day) which is the Millennial Reign of Christ on Earth...
All that stuff fits together like a completed jigsaw puzzle...
That's why God had Paul write Romans 9-11, to show us that He is not done with Israel yet...
“The people of the Messiah are going to destroy the city and the temple???
That’s your context???”
Answer:
Again, you deliberately are trying to confuse the issue.
26a = Messiah (A)
26b = people of the prince (B) ie. someone totally different than Messiah.
As I mentioned in the post, the Subject of this verse CHANGES after the conjunctive. Both you and I agree.
So, what’s your point here?
Just trying to confuse? Lie? Falsely accuse?
... Please do yourself a favor and start acting like a Christian.
“I don’t know if these Godly guys you referenced believed in the Rapture...I don’t know if God revealed it to them...
But I do know that I do see the Rapture in the scriptures...”
Answer:
This kind of reply really kills me.
In your opinion, the ‘rapture’ was not revealed to Jesus, the Early Church, any of the Reformers, or anyone else until the 19th century.
However, it was revealed ‘specially’ to Darby, Scofield, Camping, and you.
Wonderful.
“One thing I can see tho...They had no need to know of the Rapture...The beginning of the prophecies to be fulfilled closest to the Rapture started when Israel became a Nation again in 1948...”
Answer:
This is another forced interpretation. The Bible says nothing of the kind. Modern-day Israel has nothing to do with ‘prophecy’. That kind of interpretation is pop culture modernism.
Any Abrahamic land promises were fulfilled by Joshua’s day. Proof text - Joshua 21: 43-45:
“And the LORD gave unto Israel ALL the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to ALL THAT HE SWARE unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; ALL CAME TO PASS.”
Christian ... Did God lie to Israel here? Did he a falsely sware? Did not all land promises come to pass?
Moreover, the New Testament clearly states that Abraham’s seed are those by faith. To deny this is to deny the Cross of Christ. Proof text - Galatians 3:26-29:
“For ye are ALL the children of God by FAITH in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is NEITHER Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus. And IF ye be Christ’s, THEN ARE YE ABRAHAM’S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.”
This is an Eternal Promise. It has nothing to do with modern Israel.
“We are starting into the 7th Day and God will give us a rest for a thousand years (1 day) which is the Millennial Reign of Christ on Earth...”
Answer:
This is another false and forced interpretation.
Saint Paul clearly stated the opposite. Proof text - I Cor 15: 50:
“Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God.”
Moreover, Jesus actually openly rejected the earthly kingdom and marked it heretical in reply to the question regarding the woman with seven husbands. The Sadducees inquired which of the woman’s seven husbands would be her husband in the Messiah’s kingdom. In His reply, Jesus told them plainly, Proof text - Matthew 22: 23-28 and Mark 12: 18-27.
“ye do ERR, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God IN HEAVEN.” (Matthew 22:29-30)
Jesus repudiated this whole idea of an earthly carnal kingdom of God and transferred its expectations to the eternal rest of the saints in Heaven in a purified and Spiritual manner of life.
This literal ‘Millennial Kingdom of God on Earth’ is a contrived desire of man, not the fulfillment of God.
To reduce Christ’s true and pure Spiritual Kingdom down to some carnal theocracy is simply to promote a form of rank materialism.
Do you really think that God will set up a ‘Christian Police State’ in the future? That sounds like spiritual communism to me.
No, Scripture divides believers into different groups.
The Church - The Church is a gathering of called out people, from the day of Pentecost by the power of the Holy spirit on the basis of the work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. They have been saved, separated, sanctified, and regenerated to be the family of God. They follow Christ, learn from Him and any one can notice their Christ-like behavior.
Just before His ascension to heaven the Lord Jesus commanded His disciples to remain in Jerusalem till they shall be baptized by the Holy Sprit. Acts 1:5.
In Acts 2 we see on the day of Pentecost as they were all together in one place, The Holy Spirit came upon all of them along with some spectacular, miraculous manifestations. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit. In the end of that chapter we read, “And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.”
So, from the above mentioned portions we understand that Church was formed on the day of Pentecost with the baptism of Holy Spirit. Paul affirms it in 1 Corinthians 12:13. Baptism of the Holy Spirit was to unite different class of people into one body. It is the Lord who adds people to the church as they got saved by trusting Him as their Savior and Lord.
The Elect of Matthew 24-The contextual usage of Matthew supports the elect as a reference to Israel because of the Jewish orientation of the passage.
Dr. Stanley Toussaint (Behold The King: A Study of Matthew):
"Such terms as the gospel of the kingdom (24:14), the holy place (24:15), the Sabbath (24:20), and the Messiah (24:23-24) indicate that Israel as a nation is in view,"
Dr. Renald Showers (Maranatha: Our Lord, Come!):
"The elect are the faithful, believing Israelite remnant in contrast with the unbelieving sinners within the nation. In Isaiah 65:7-16 God drew a contrast between these two groups and their destinies. In verse 9 He called the believing remnant " mine Elect," and in verses 17-25 He indicated that in the future Millennium His elect remnant of the nation will be blessed greatly on the earth."
Since the term " elect" is used three times in Matthew 24 (verses 22, 24, 31; see also Mark 13:20, 22, 27), it is most likely that the author uses it to refer to the same entity all three times.
Dr. McAvoy (Critique of Gundry):
" The rule of context precludes understanding ' elect' in 24:22, 24 as referring to Israel and then nine verses later as referring to the church. Without some indication of transition from one intended meaning to another ' elect' in 24:21 must mean the same as it does in 24:22, 24."
Further evidence that Matthew 24:31 is not a Rapture statement is found in the fact that this verse includes citations from Old Testament passages, specifically Deuteronomy 30:4. These references clearly support the notion that this angelic gathering, which was predicted in the Older Testament, references a regathering of saved Jews who need to be returned to the land of Israel in which they will live for a thousand years during Christ' s Kingdom.
Dr. Renald Showers notes that "from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other" means that " the elect will be gathered from all over the world at Christ' s coming," and provides more proof of the identity of the "elect" in Matthew 24:31:
First, because of Israel' s persistent rebellion against God, He declared that He would scatter the Jews " into all the winds" (Ezek. 5:10, 12) or " toward all winds" (Ezek. 17:21). In Zechariah 2:6 God stated that He did scatter them abroad " as four winds of the heavens." . . . God did scatter the Jews all over the world.
Next, God also declared that in the future Israel would be gathered from the east, west, north, and south, " from the ends of the earth" (Isa. 43:5-7). Note that in the context of this promise, God called Israel His " chosen" (vereses 10, 20).
Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four directions of the world will take place in conjunction with " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in conjunction with the blowing of " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Hebrew). . . .
What Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the Jewish ingathering that will fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Feast of Trumpets for the nation of Israel.
Tribulation Saints - The Bible predicts that a huge number of people will be saved during the seven year Tribulation. Rev 7:9 describes the number as a "great multitude, which no man could number."
During the Tribulation, many people who remain on earht after the Rapture will come to know Christ Jesus as Savior. These are the tribulation saints who will face the wrath of Antichrist (Revelation 13:7), yet their eternal salvation is secure (Revelation 14:12-13).
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. (Revelation 6:9-11)
So we know that these are a specific group of believers which have, during the breaking of the first judgments of the Tribulation, been killed at some time previously. Contrast that with Church-age believers:
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:8-10)
The only way the 24 elders could sing this "new song" is if they represent the Church. Only the church has been redeemed by the blood of Jesus out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation and only the church will be made Kings and Priests to reign on Earth.
These elders are never shown in Old Testament visions of the Throne of God, but in Rev. 4 they’re shown seated on thrones like kings, they’re dressed in white which means they’re righteous, and they’re wearing the crowns of over comers. Only the Church fits that description.
The Tribulation martyrs of Rev. 6 are under the altar, not seated on thrones. And the multitude in Rev. 7 serve God His Temple but don’t reign with Him and are never called either kings or priests.
So it is the Holy Spirit, not Dispensationialists, Who divide believers into different groups. It is the Holy Spirit Who, as we see from the Book that He wrote, states that Church-age believers are different from other believers at different times in both history and the future.
Second, it's strange that you can look at two descriptions of the same event with their major overlapping details (the Lord descending from heaven/appearing in the sky, the archangel/angels, the trumpet/the blast of the trumpet of God, the gathering of all believers both alive and dead (presumably from throughout the earth)/the gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other) and somehow conclude that must be referring to two separate events. These are nowhere in scripture contrasted as two separate events, but your eschatology requires it, in spite of the Lord's own explanation of exactly what that parable of the field meant: the field is the world, the wheat are the elect, the children of the kingdom, the tares are the children of the evil one, the harvest is the end of the world, the reapers are the angels.
I'm just going by what God says about it. I'll let the word of God speak for itself.
Characteristics of the Rapture
Rapture Scriptures:
John 14:1-3
1 Thess 4:13-18
1 Cor 15:51-53
Col 3:4
Heb 9:28
1 John 2:28-3:2
James 5:7-9
1 Thess 1:10
1 Thess 2:19
1 Thess 3:13
1 Thess 5:23
Phil 3:20-21
Titus 2:13
1 Cor 1:7-8
1 Peter 1:7, 13
Jude 21
Characteristics of the Second Coming:
Second coming Scriptures:
Daniel 2:44-45
Daniel 7:9-14
Daniel 12:1-3
Zech 14:1-15
Matt 13:41
Matt 24:15-31
Matt 26:64
Mark 13:14-27
Mark 14:62
Luke 21:25-28
Acts 1:9-11
Acts 3:19-21
2 Thess 1:6-10
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 14-15
Rev 1:7
Rev 19:11-20:6
Rev 22:7, 12, 20
Zech 12:10
1 Thess 3:13
2 Thess 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-13
So, yet again, there is no Scriptural support for the Rapture and the Second Coming as one event.
As Jesus said, "And he [the Son of Man] shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Note that it is your eschatology, not the scripture, that prevents you from accepting that this gathering up to Jesus in the clouds in Matthew 13/24 is exactly the same event as that described in Corinthians and Thessalonians. That is because you have already concluded, without scriptural foundation, that since "church-age" believers wouldn't go through the tribulation this couldn't be referring to them, in spite of Jesus warning believers long in advance, in order that they not lose heart when faced with these trials, that they would experience persecution to the point of death. Again, it's your eschatology that has shaped your view to the point that virtually twin descriptions between Matthew 13/24 and Paul's in Corinthians/Thess must be taken to be descriptions of virtually identical, though separate events.
Covered in the first part of my response. Again, it is God and His word that separates the Rapture and the Second Coming, not my "eschatology".
Thus far, three paragraphs into your post, you have provided not one verse of Scripture that supports post-Tribulationism.
The rest of your post is taken care of by my responses in this thread. None of the Scriptures you posted support a post-Tribulation Rapture, and actually validate the facts that I have presented in this response.
Here are a few more huge problems with post-Tribulationism that no post-Tribber will touch:
So, there are no Scriptures to support a post-Tribulation Rapture, and every Rapture passage which addresses that issue assures the Bride that we will not be on earth during the judgments God has for this world.
I guess I'll stick to what the Holy Spirit has told us about the Rapture and the promises made to the Church by Jesus Christ.
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