Posted on 11/23/2011 11:11:08 AM PST by marshmallow
A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.
Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.
Every one backed up with scripture. Catholics use hearsay from those who claim “inside knowledge” like the Muslims and Mormons.
Granted there are a few that poison the well every time they post, but even they must be met with grace. No one person can change this forum, it has to be each one of us, individually. If we really are surrendered to Christ, then we can call on his strength to give us the ability to forgive - even without an apology - and to speak the truth with love, just as we are commanded to do. Sometimes, it may mean we ignore the insults and continue to speak about our thoughts on whatever subject is being discussed. It isn't always easy, I know that, but we will answer to God for every word we speak. He alone knows our hearts and he alone can judge justly. I hope you have a joyous Christmas.
Thank you, God bless you, too. Have a good night and a joyous Christmas.
I HAVE and DO keep that in mind. I cannot control what anyone else but myself posts. But if someone who is complaining about the dank atmosphere refuses to open a window to get the stink out, they haven’t helped the matter a bit. When they ADD to the bad air while complaining about what others do, it is either willful blindness or hypocrisy. As I said just a bit ago, we alone are responsible for this forum and we can either choose to correct ourselves or we can’t complain.
I hope you and yours have a very Merry Christmas.
to proof text their individual theories, some similar some not, not even fit to be termed theology.
As your posts reflect only your views which differ from others who use the same or other scripture to "back up" theirs.
It's still just you. Your theory based on your own authority. That's all it is. You've taken a book and made your own religion consisting of you and what you wish to take from it and say it means.
I’m noticing whom you choose to correct in this instance, claiming clean hands; that’s the point here.
Merry Christmas to you and yours as well.
I believe people miss important truths when they fail to understand context, audience, purpose and place for the different truths revealed in Scripture. Jesus said repeatedly that he "came for lost sheep of the house of Israel" and Peter admitted he was the Apostle to the Circumcision and Paul to the Gentiles. That's just Scripture, Mark, not interpretation. Just as we know from Jesus' own words that the laws of the OT are not for the church in the age of grace, we can also know the truth behind other teachings. The Incarnation was the WORD made flesh and the word of God, Holy Scripture, is his further revelation to man. It would be a grave mistake to presume God only wants us to know what Jesus was recorded as saying while here on earth for three years and omit what he continued to reveal after he ascended through the Holy Spirit. You CANNOT interpret new revelation by the old, but it is the new that fulfills the old and continues it. To insist that the other books are "lesser if only by the fact that they are the words of men, not the words of God", is to also commit a grave error. ALL Scripture is God-breathed EVEN the words of Jesus that the Holy Spirit ensured we would know about by bringing back to remembrance all that he taught them. Remember, there was NO tape recorder back then. We only know what Jesus said because the Holy Spirit directed those men to write what he inspired them to. Nowhere in Scripture are we ever told any one book is more important than the other. You cannot "accept" the teachings of the epistles in light of the Gospels just as the Jews could not interpret the Prophets by the Pentateuch. It was continuing revelation just as the epistles continued further than the Gospels. Yet they did not ever contradict each other nor could they because they all come from the same source - God.
The Jews did not look at the OT through the prism of the Gospels and therefore, they are left with the same understanding that they had before Christ came to Earth. But when I post Gospel passages and you guys post snippets of Paul in an effort to refute the Gospel message, then you guys have stepped off the track of Christianity and into the pagan self beliefs that plague the children of the Reformation.
Yes, the Jews rejected Jesus as their promised Messiah and they are "set aside" during the church age of grace. They HAVE missed out of the greatest fulfillment of God's promise, but he is not done with them yet. When you complain that we "post snippets of Paul in an effort to refute the Gospel message", that is not true and only reflects your false view of Scripture. The epistles are FURTHER revelation, they continue and go past the teaching of Jesus while he was here with his continuing revelation. Jesus didn't stop teaching when he arose, it is he who revealed the mysteries to Peter and Paul which they wrote down for us all.
The Old Testament was fulfilled by the New Testament. Just as you can't interpret the Gospels by the Torah, you can't interpret the epistles by the Gospels. One follows the other and reveals more truth. Just as I posted earlier, you cannot find Jesus even talking about many of those things contained in the epistles because they were a continuous revelation. But no matter what Jesus said while still here, nothing is contradicted with his further revelation. This way of seeing Scripture is certainly not a new concept from the Reformation. The Apostles certainly, as the founders of the church and shapers of what are the central tenets of the Christian faith, knew that what Jesus continued to teach them through the Holy Spirit was the truth. It is definitely NOT a pagan idea since it is holding to the divine authority of the infallible word of God. Those who diverge from Holy Scripture and seek to establish an authority that places itself above the Scriptures is what leads to false doctrine.
But, you can go ahead and try to make everything fit within the four accounts of the life of Jesus and his limited time teaching the multitudes. You will find yourself at a disadvantage explaining quite a bit and you will miss out on the truths intended for us all to know. Some things may not even make much sense, and may quite easily lead to error. Taken as a whole, the Bible is our source of all truth - just as God intended it to be. It is the Sword of the Spirit and, like Jesus did, is the offensive weapon in our armory that defeats the lies of Satan.
Here’s what the CC says about you not believing every word of the apocrypha since they say it’s part of the canon of the RCC.
If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the Old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema. [H. J. Schroeder, Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, Original Text with English Translation (St Louis and London: B. Herder, 1941), P 18.] If we should take the apocrypha as scripture could you please answer the following questions?
According to the two Books of Maccabees, which one of the three places did Antiochus Epiphanes actually die in? Did he actually die three different times in three different places?
Do you believe the following from Ecclesiasticus (Sirach)?
Ecclesiasticus 25:19 Any iniquity is insignificant compared to a wife's iniquity.
Ecclesiasticus 22:3 It is a disgrace to be the father of an undisciplined, and the birth of a daughter is a loss.
Do you believe the birth of a daughter is a loss to her parents or do you believe what it says in Psalms?
Psalm 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. 4As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. 5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.
Do you believe there is no hope for children born out of wedlock?
Wisdom 3:16-19 But children of adulterers will not come to maturity, and the offspring of an unlawful union will perish. Even if they live long they will be held of no account, and finally their old age will be without honor. If they die young, they will have no hope and no consolation on the day of judgment. For the end of an unrighteous generation is grievous.
Or do you believe the following?
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Wisdom 6:17 says, "The beginning of wisdom is the most sincere desire for instruction." but in Proverbs 9 it says this.
Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Which is it?
Wisdom 6:24 says, "The multitude of the wise is the salvation of the world," but in Timothy 4:10 it says “For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Again, which is it? Are you an anathema to the RCC or do you agree with all that is written in the apocrypha?
When I read John 10:27-30 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." for the very first time in my life, I didn't even need another person to explain it to me. A light went on, is all I know how to call it and I KNEW it was the truth. Right then and there I said to God that I believed him and I was his sheep. There was NO YOPIOS at all, just the simple truth of God's word, the words of Jesus recorded in Scripture, and I could see.
It is so sad to read what some say here and to know that for some the simplicity that is in Christ is too simple to understand. It seems weird to read those words, too simple to understand, but there can't be another reason why it is missed. It is human nature to expect something so grand, so enormously important, to cost dearly and to presume that we must be perfect humans to merit it. For it to be a matter of simple faith seems impossible. Yet that is how God works. Where sin abounded grace abounded more. Where mankind rejects something for nothing, God insist acceptance IS enough. Where man refuses to admit he does not and cannot earn eternal life, God hold out his hands and says, "Take it. Taste and see that the Lord is good. It is by grace through faith and that NOT of yourselves. It the gift of God. Not of works."
It is no wonder that Jesus said, "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Kids ran with opened arms and opened hearts into his arms. We should do the same. As we celebrate the truth that he humbled himself and came into our world as a little newborn baby, I pray that we also humble ourselves and reach for him just as those babes of long ago. He is trustworthy. He is LORD GOD ALMIGHTY with us. I hope you and your family have a wonderful Christmas and may we never lose the awe of children for what he has done for us.
Matthew 11:16-19 16"But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates, 17"'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'
18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."
And Luke 7:31-35
Jesus never denied that He drank with tax collectors and sinners.
You have a problem with Jesus reaching out to people where they're at?
Well spoken! Amen and Amen.
As I skim your thesis, I thank you for the amusement. I imagine a poster devoting so much of his “religion” to examining the Church through jaundiced eyes and working so much to try to pose what he feels certain is a gotcha.
It’s as if one spent all their time on a painting hoping that what was left unpainted-that in the negative space-could become his own personal work of art.
And it may be, but only to himself. To others it is a portrait of a clown.
Couldn’t answer the questions ey?
;)
Even on this thread, we see that some insist that only the "gospels" should be accepted since only they contain the words of Jesus. That the words of Jesus matter more than the words of men. They totally forget, or at least discount, that ALL Scripture is given by God. Even the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the retelling of what Jesus said AS IT WAS brought to their memories by the Holy Spirit. Some of those words Jesus said could not have been heard by those with him since he was alone a few times. The thoughts and intents of people's hears were also spoken of which MUST have been known only by the Holy Spirit revealing it to the writers decades after it happened. Even little details were not left out - something that cannot be explained as being passed down by "tradition".
Nope, those books were set apart from the Jewish Old Testament for a very good reason - they did not meet the standards God set for determining what came from him. He even told the Israelites that if a prophet spoke something and it was not true or did not come to pass, that that prophet was not from God - that is how they knew who to trust. It IS curious, though, how those questionable books weren't declared officially official as part of the Canon until the Council of Trent and those anathemas were not existing until then either. It was not mere coincidence that they were added just when the Catholic Church was disputing the Reformation. Without some of them, several doctrines would be proved to be unscriptural and, since the Pope was also declared as infallible as well as the Magesterium, it just wouldn't do having a dogma shown to be against Scripture, would it?
>>>>>I HAVE and DO keep that in mind. I cannot control what anyone else but myself posts. But if someone who is complaining about the dank atmosphere refuses to open a window to get the stink out, they haven’t helped the matter a bit. When they ADD to the bad air while complaining about what others do, it is either willful blindness or hypocrisy. As I said just a bit ago, we alone are responsible for this forum and we can either choose to correct ourselves or we can’t complain.
Every time I have opened a window, someone has yelled that Catholics worship Mary, ridiculed the Vatican, prated about white hankies, posted stupid gifs, and told us that our religion is demonic.
So, look to your own, if you want to improve the air. I’m sick of reading this baloney. Yes, I am complaining about what others do, and I don’t much care that you call it “bad air.” You alone are responsible for what is said by your side on this forum, and you can either stop with the falsehoods and correct yourselves, or quit complaining when you get back what is dished out.
Genesis 3 1Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?" 2And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" 4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
What is promised in Scripture is that Christians will pass the Judgement.
Going back to the Lexicon, one discovers that the meaning is actually tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law) -- accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.
Now, how do you know that you are actually Christian? You do not profess traditional or primitive Christianity. Are you declaring that you are Christian regardless of what our Lord will Judge? The meaning of all this is that Jesus is the Judge, not you. He is saying that if you comply with His Commands, you will be saved; that includes belief and all that He has Commanded.
John 15: 9 As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love.f 10If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.g
11“I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be complete.h 12This is my commandment: love one another as I love you.i 13* No one has greater love than this,j to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command you.
If you do not do as He Commands, you are not His friend. You will be cast into the outer darkness.
I believe people miss important truths when they fail to understand context, audience, purpose and place for the different truths revealed in Scripture. Jesus said repeatedly that he "came for lost sheep of the house of Israel" and Peter admitted he was the Apostle to the Circumcision and Paul to the Gentiles. That's just Scripture, Mark, not interpretation.
You are still missing out on the mathematical operand 'and'. Peter was the Apostle to not only the Jews, but to the Gentiles as well - witness not only the mass conversion in Acts, which was overseen by Peter, but also the first individual as well. Paul spent more time with the Jews than the Gentiles - if you follow his Epistles and Acts, you will see.
Jesus came for the Jews, certainly, and will always, but His Church was trained to teach and baptize the whole world and bring them to Christianity. Unless you don't believe the closing lines in Matthew, that is.
You cannot "accept" the teachings of the epistles in light of the Gospels just as the Jews could not interpret the Prophets by the Pentateuch. It was continuing revelation just as the epistles continued further than the Gospels. Yet they did not ever contradict each other nor could they because they all come from the same source - God.
This is what you guys have been denying all along - that you believe that Paul's epistles are the pinnacle of the revelation of God.
The Old Testament was fulfilled by the New Testament. Just as you can't interpret the Gospels by the Torah, you can't interpret the epistles by the Gospels. One follows the other and reveals more truth.
See? In your own words, you tell us that the Epistles are more important than the Gospel because they follow the Gospels and therefore are better or more important. This is not Christianity, and never has been. That is Paulianity and has been condemned as heresy by a number of different Councils as a part of a number of overall heresies.
But, you can go ahead and try to make everything fit within the four accounts of the life of Jesus and his limited time teaching the multitudes. You will find yourself at a disadvantage explaining quite a bit and you will miss out on the truths intended for us all to know. Some things may not even make much sense, and may quite easily lead to error. Taken as a whole, the Bible is our source of all truth - just as God intended it to be. It is the Sword of the Spirit and, like Jesus did, is the offensive weapon in our armory that defeats the lies of Satan.
The Bible itself says - your Messiah Paul says - that the Church is the pillar and source of truth, not the Bible. The Lord God Almighty is the pinnacle of revelation to man - this is traditional Christianity from the very beginning and something that we Christians will never ever compromise on. Our doctrines come from the entire Bible and from the Apostles.
The Gospel writer Luke even wrote (painted) the first icon - that of Our Lady. We will not compromise the Faith; the efforts after Vatican II to water it down have failed, and we are reclaiming the Faith. We are grateful to our Orthodox brethren who have kept the Faith closer, and reject the attempted Protestantization of the Faith.
There is Christianity and then there is the doctrines of the individual. We choose Him and the mighty gifts that He has given us - including the Church.
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