Gay Episcopal Bishop to Preach at San Francisco Catholic Parish

Catholic Culture ^ | 11/22/11

[marshmallow]

A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.

Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.

[CynicalBear]

Catholics have to stay within the cult doctrines of Catholicism outside of scripture or they get stuck. Without the propaganda of the CC Catholics get lost especially when it comes to God’s word.

[rzman21]

You lose. We win. End of discussion.

[rzman21]

There’s nothing left to discuss.

[CynicalBear]

Come back when you can discuss scripture instead of CC propaganda.

[Religion Moderator]

Reading the mind of another Freeper and attributing motive to him are forms of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[mitch5501]

"Thanks be to God"

Amen Daniel.

Scripture can be a beautifull arrow through the heart.It's sometimes a wonderfull thing to see the effect God's Word has on people.I know where I stand and I will hold fast to that and no man will take from me what God has freely given.

I'd pray that was true of all who call upon His name.That they would comprehend the things that are freely given to us through Christ.Much debate would wither and die amidst that sort of revelation but the flesh is always there hanging over our shoulder wanting so much to assert itself.Very often it succeeds as evidenced in these threads.

I'm very appreciative of your well thought out posts and your spirit in doing so.Edifying and encouraging is always a good thing and even more so considering 'when' we are.

Grace and peace to you.God bless

[Judith Anne]

>>>>>ONLINE LIGUORI’S BOOK PAGE BY PAGE”

>>>>>http://www.onread.com/fbreader/388152

But as Mark Bsnr pointed out, your so-called quotes do not match the original, they match cuts from an anti-Catholic website, which you have not given the web address for, yet.

You’ve admitted you’re an anti-Catholic, and now you are shown to put false information on the thread.

There are a number of posters it is a waste of time to read. You have made yourself into one of those.

[boatbums]

Of course you don’t see it, you are part and parcel of the very heresy spoken of. Enjoy.

What I don't see is how you can accuse St. Peter of grave error and heresy teaching by Divine inspiration the priesthood of all believers. Do you enjoy accusing God of heresy? Interesting...

[boatbums]

Oh, please. All the times you have complained about Quix posting those exact same sentences from the same book - even when he photocopied the pages FROM the book and posted them - please don't keep pretending outrage that some of those quotes appear elsewhere. They certainly did NOT come from any website anti-catholic or not. Instead of proving bigotry and bias that you call despicable, why not actually address the point?

CAWW did not quote from Liguori in order to "bash" Catholics but to ask a legitimate question about those here who insist the Roman Catholic Church does not condone the worship of Mary but who do nothing about documents stamped with nihil obstat and Imprimatur full of verbiage that can mean nothing BUT that. THAT was the question, after all. Puffing out your cheeks and crying foul is a diversionary tactic seen many times and that reflects on the whiner not the asker of the question.

[Rashputin]

" ... scripture instead of CC propaganda."

ROTFLMAO.. Propaganda like the Bible? From Scripture, the "clear meaning of the Scripture" that those who worship themselves cannot abide but have to twist and evade:

1 Timothy 5:17 Let the priests that rule well be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1 Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith: Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn: and, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
1 Timothy 5:19 Against a priest receive not an accusation, but under two or three witnesses.

Hmmmm, priests are a clearly identifiable group with separate instructions on dealing with accusations against them and therefore, somewhat set apart. Of course, those who substitute their own intellect for Scripture read verses directly from the Bible and do one of two things, either say, "that's what it says, but that's not what it means", or begin twisting other Scripture, ripping it out of context, and taking single verses from here and there to build their own, new, self-gratifying interpretation. They adhere to, The Lego Block Method of Interpretation, not to allowing the Holy Spirit to illuminate the same Scripture the self-worshipers claim to believe and regularly refer to themselves as believing, "the clear meaning of Scripture". They accept no clear meaning because the clear meaning always contradicts them.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

My, my, " ... obey your prelates ...", now the self-worshiping crowd can't stand that. True, the clear meaning of Scripture is right there for all to see, but, like Eve those who follow their own intellect and only accept Scriptures AFTER they twist it to suit themselves cannot obey anyone other than them self. So, forget that stuff about obedience in the verse from Hebrews, that will have to be made contingent on something NOT in the Scripture, their own interpretation, their own intellect. Because such folks have no intention of ever obeying anyone or carrying any cross, they already have them self to worship and obey.

Then there's that little warning in the book of Jude:

Jude 1:10 But these men blaspheme whatever things they know not: and what things soever they naturally know, like dumb beasts, in these they are corrupted.
Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! For they have gone in the way of Cain: and after the error of Balaam they have for reward poured out themselves and have perished in the contradiction of Core.

Naturally, since 'Core' referenced in Jude claimed there was, "a priesthood of all believers", that everyone who had been led out of Egypt was chosen, and that therefore Core and his followers need not submit to those Moses appointed over them, the first thing the self-worshipers have to do is go to Numbers, look up Core, and begin redefining, and twisting Old Testament Scripture. Well, sorry, it doesn't work. No matter how you twist the Scriptures, God the Father Himself, struck down Core and those who followed him because The Father had delegated authority to Moses, and who Moses appointed was who Core and his crowd were supposed to submit to. As in, "... obey your prelates ..." in Hebrews. You know, Jude, Hebrews, both New Testament books, both clearly part of the New Covenant, and both something intended for Christians to learn from and live by.

So, have at it twisters, re-definers, re-interpreters, Comic-book fans, self-worshipers, and all the others who refuse to become as little chlidren. Once more deny the clear meaning of Scripture and then try once again to claim no one discusses Scripture or refutes some particular favorite heresy of yours with Scripture. All the while, don't forget to repeat the lie that the "clear meaning of Scripture" is what's important to self-worshipers.

have a nice day

[Rashputin]

I saw some really funny corn on the cob holders on sale. One is like the back half of the little pink pig and the other is like the front half of the little pink pig. So, when you put them on a corn cob, you sort of have one long pig. You wouldn't want to serve pearls with your corn on the cob, though, especially if it looks like a pig with those cob holders attached.

Heretics and those who call Christ a liar like to project their own habits onto others, but it never works because it's immediately obvious that they are heretics like Core. Just like casting pearls before swine never works, pointing such folks to the truth never works, they just keep on spinning and whining and pretending but they have no life in them and therefore cannot understand His Word.

[boatbums]

Just for the benefit of all us "swine" humor us with your interpretation of Peter's very exact teaching of the "priesthood of all believers". Just to remind you, those verses are:

I Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

I Peter 2:9-10
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

And in case you may be thinking about the Old Testament priesthood being continued in the New Testament church, let me give you the words from Hebrews:

Hebrews 7:11-14
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Hebrews 7:15-25
And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man (Jesus), because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

[caww]

Fortunately I am not accountable to you for the style nor the arrangement of how or what I post.

However, There was no reason to post the link to his book for it's readily available to any who would google it which i encouraged that you do..... It was sufficient to offer the page, author and title. We do likewise with scripture references as you know.

However, since you and others continued to rant and rave over what web site ‘you assumed’ those quotes were from, it became evident you weren't looking for his book...or the references to that given...rather on yet another wild goose chase of your own making for something ‘other than’ what the man said. Thus I did your work for you and linked the actual volume for your convenience.

Your problem has been avoiding his works altogether, and also attempting to lead a wild goose chase for ‘something which wasn't there’.....rather than simply going to the author's book itself to see what he quoted according to the quotes given. That's your failure not mine nor anyone else.

And her yet AGAIN...no comments given about his words...just more prattle.

[boatbums]

I just find it very difficult to believe that you read the book and assembled a list of quotes from a 300 year old writing. And that those quotes which you copied from the pages you noted just happened to support an anti-Catholic position.

Have you forgotten the very pages of that book that Quix photocopied and posted numerous times? It IS curious, though, why you would call Bishop Liguori's compilation of various Catholic saints and Popes statements regarding Mary as supporting "an anti-Catholic position". This book DID have an approval from a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church called a "Nihil Obstat" as well as an "Imprimatur". Those designations, as I remember, serve to assure the faithful that nothing contained in the document is found to hinder or stand in the way or be against the faith and free of doctrinal error. From the site http://www.fisheaters.com/imprimatur.html:

The Church, given teaching authority by Christ and as the conduit for fullness of Truth on this earth, has the obligation to preserve Her sheep from deviations from the Truth and to to guarantee them the "objective possibility of professing the true faith without error" (Catechism, No. 890). Because of this, the Bishops will look at books published by Catholics on Catholic matters in their dioceses, giving them their "okay" if nothing therein is found to be contrary to the Faith (relevant Canon Law: "Title IV: The Means of Social Communication," ¶ 822-832)

The procedure works like this: when a Catholic writes a book on faith, morals, theology, liturgy, books on prayer, editions of Sacred Scripture, etc., he will submit his manuscript to his diocese's Censor. If the Censor finds no problem with it, he will give it his stamp, which reads "Nihil Obstat," or "nothing stands in the way." He then sends it to the Bishop for his review. If the Bishop finds nothing objectionable, he gives the book his "Imprimatur" which means, "let it be printed."

If the Catholic writing the book is a member of a religious order, the manuscript is first sent to his religious superior before it is sent to the Censor and Bishop. If the religious superior finds no impediment to publication, he will give the book his stamp of "Imprimi Potest," which means "it can be printed."

So, I'm sure others would like an explanation on how such a writing published by the Roman Catholic Church, could be accused of supporting anti-Catholic positions.

[boatbums]

In a country where the vast majority has always been Protestant or part of a Protestant derived religion, I doubt that those who attack the Catholic Church can ever limit themselves to only attacking the Catholic Church. There are just too many other Christians such attack dogs obviously don't agree with for such dogs limit themselves to telling lies only about the Catholic Church.

According to you, then, those who do not agree with Roman Catholicism and all her doctrines are all "swine", "dogs", "creatures" (another's term), "liars" and "bigots". Of course, no one could or should accuse any of you of such hateful actions, right? Let me give you some helpful advice, take it or leave it. You are on an OPEN Religion Forum that encourages debate and discussion about varying religious doctrines. You should EXPECT, our Moderator tells us, to have your beliefs challenged and that these challenges can get "heated". If you are unable to tolerate such debates, you should NOT participate and if you do so, then complain about your beliefs being challenged and start calling everyone who doesn't hold to the same things as you various derogatory names, then you are a DISRUPTION on the thread.

If you want to open a thread where ONLY you and your buds get to talk all in agreement with each other and have nobody else be able to disagree, then you have a Caucus designation for just that. So, before anyone accuses me of posing as the Religion Moderator, let me just say this particular poster has repeatedly called other Freepers derogatory names and used all sorts of nastiness to bully others off the thread. Rather than complain to the Moderator - which is not my style - I am reminding another of the rules and why they exist. Take or leave my advice, it's your choice, but you are not succeeding in the tactic of personal destruction in order to force us to leave the thread. You do not have that power and we have every right to speak about our beliefs. If you expect others to respect you and listen to your views, then can the ugliness - you are not going to attract anyone to your side like that. If you can't defend your beliefs without such talk, then you don't have much to offer.

[Rashputin]

Ahh, a post full of Scripture reinterpreted, a reply to something not said, the obvious and worn out pretense that if Christ established a priesthood for His Church it's the same as continuing the Old Testament Church which is a blatant lie, something no one said, something only those few who prefer to torture Scripture rather than accept the clear meaning of Scripture even imagines is implied. Another post that's all a claim to understanding Scripture by someone who has no life in them. Just another example of those who worship their own intellect trying to wiggle around and reinterpret Scripture to hide from their own lies,misstatements, and above all hide from the Truth in Scripture. Replying based on preconceptions, pretending others say things they didn't, and so on, the exact same tactics all the leftists and fascists use and have used to promote the fantasy that each individual is their own final authority to the whole society. Based on the fruits of their labors, the most Protestant and Protestant derived society in history, the society that has become a perfect reflection of those who each have their own personal interpretation of Scripture, we recognize them for what they are. Same tactics, same self above all else mindset, same worship of self, plain and clear for all to see.

God delegated authority over the people to Moses and Core asserted that he didn't have to submit to those Moses placed in authority over the people because Core said all those who came out of Egypt were chosen and equal. God The Father Himself killed Core and his followers.
Christ delegated authority over His Church to the Apostles but the self-worshiping crowd insist that they do not need to submit to those the Apostles place in authority over the people in His Church because the self-worshipers claim that everyone who believes in their own personal interpretation of Scripture is equal to those ordained by the Apostles. Christ through the Holy Spirit gave those who follow Core over to a reprobate mind leaving them spiritually dead.
A clear, exact, comparison, one situation to another, both cases being identical in substance and effect, which is why Jude warned us about Core. The Bible and The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church are on the side of the Apostles, and the self-worshipers are on the side of Core. Whether anyone likes it or not and no matter how much anyone tries to deny the very simple sentence, "Obey your prelates and be subject to them".

Another thing on sale at Amazon, something sure to please pink piggy crowd, is magnetic kissing salt and pepper shakers. Neither of the little piggies has a pearl necklace on, unfortunately, since we all know it's silly to expect swine to have anything to do with pearls.

have a nice day

[Rashputin]

"According to you, then, those who do not agree with Roman Catholicism and all her doctrines are all "swine", "dogs", "creatures" (another's term), "liars" and "bigots". Of course, no one could or should accuse any of you of such hateful actions, right?"

I'm very sorry, but it is the Scriptures that tell us about those who have no life in them and are spiritually dead likening them to swine. I'm sorry that yet again you think that quoting Scriptures is offensive. As for the "attack dogs" part, that's obvious to anyone who knows what this long series of comments flows from. It flows from the fact that a queer Episcopalian Bishop may be allowed to speak in a Catholic Church if no one intervenes and corrects the errant priest who invited the Episcopalian Bishop. The comments, however, focus almost exclusively on attacking the Catholic Church as a whole. Not a single errant Catholic priest, not the queer Episcopalian Bishop, not the thousands of non-Catholic churches that are happy to ordain queers, marry queers one to another, accept abortion as something other than murder, and so on and on. Nope, none of that matters to those who want to attack the Catholic Church and who will do so no matter how slender the pretext.

So, the truth is an absolute defense and it self-evident that this entire long series of comments flows from the desire of some people to attack the Catholic Church. They are, by definition, attack dogs.

didn't read the rest, didn't need to, so the hokum after "Let me .., " is left as an exercise for the other attack dogs to gloat over and pretend makes some sense.

[caww]

No Protestant reads the Bible without starting with a firm foundation of anti-Catholicism.

Entirely false....Generally most become anti-catholic 'after' they read the scriptures and see the truth recorded in the Bible opposes catholic teachings, rituals and practices.

[caww]

:)

[boatbums]

So, in addition to being piggies and dogs, we are now fascists and leftists. Too bad all you have is names and labels but nothing of substance to fortify your assertions. I notice that you have YET to comment about why Peter quite clearly speaks of the "priesthood of all believers", why is that? I would not even be arguing this point with you had Peter not by divine inspiration said exactly that. So, who now is "replying based on preconceptions, pretending others say things they didn't, and so on"?

Now, I realize that you probably have quite a bit riding on your assurance of Scripture commanding you to blindly obey all that comes down to you from your "authority", but my authority - and it SHOULD be every Christians' - is the Holy Scriptures. Because what the Apostles did after they assured those who continued the ministry of reconciliation of Jesus Christ were well established in the orthodox teachings, enscripturated (wrote down) all that the Holy Spirit brought to their remembrance - JUST as Jesus told them he would. Therefore, whatever any person teaches to their congregation should be grounded in the teachings of the Bible.

This is hardly a new idea. In fact, nearly every one of those called Early Church Fathers stated that nothing they teach should be heard if it was not verified by Scripture. These sites have many of those men's words about how important the Scriptures are as the authority for doctrines of the faith - http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-apostolic-fathers-athanasius.htm and http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Ancients_on_Scripture.html#.

My faith is based upon the teachings of the Bible and I would hope anyone who sincerely is seeking to know the truth will come to God, believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. His Holy Word is our divinely-inspired, infallible source for truth. Any leader of God's people MUST have Scripture as their authority and God would never expect his children to follow anyone who did not teach his truth. He has also given us the indwelling Holy Spirit who would lead us into all truth. So we have God's word, the Holy Spirit and, hopefully, leaders who have both as well as the gift of teaching and preaching so that they can train up God's people in the truth. I hope this is your true desire - to KNOW Christ.