Posted on 11/02/2011 9:26:44 AM PDT by DogwoodSouth
Well, I'm not a theological expert, so I can't explain exactly how praying for anyone (dead or not) works. I just know that we are commanded to pray for one another. Scripture commands us to "pray without ceasing" (1 Thessalonians 5:17) and specifically demands that we intercede "for one another" (James 5:16) and that we pray "for all" (1 Timothy 2:1). There are no qualifiers in these instructions; nothing that would act as though death has separated the Body of Christ or made prayers ineffective. In addition to this, we know that praying for the souls of the dead was a Jewish practice that Christians continued. 2 Maccabees 12:46 reads: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from sins."
Interestingly, the Apostle Paul seems to refer to praying for the dead (in this case, his friend Onesiphorus) in his second letter to Timothy. Specifically, he wrote (important part highlighted): "May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chains, but when he was in Rome, he sought me diligently, and found me (the Lord grant to him to find the Lord's mercy on that day); and in how many things he served at Ephesus, you know very well." At the very least, reasonable people could conclude that at the time Paul wrote this, Onesiphorus had died and left behind a family (i.e. "house"), and that Paul was praying in the highlighted words that Onesiphorus would be granted God's mercy on the Day of Judgement.
(Excerpt) Read more at southernfriedcatholicism.com ...
Check my earlier posts. They were refering to a verse in 2nd Maccabees.
Saved, yet not admittable to heaven? not likely.
I am not saying that the prayers denigrate Jesus’ sacrifice, just that the belief, the Belief, that somehow, having Jesus as my Savior will NOT get me to heaven, that He is not ‘purging’ enough, that there is no way He can clean us enough, we still neeed to have a stopping point.
THAT is what takes away from Him.
What a mealy mouthed reply that is.
The point is - they ARE going to heaven. What’s so hard to understand? Christ death has bought heaven for them. The last stains of sin are being purged in preparation to enter heaven.
What’s so hard to understand? There are bible passages to back it up and the early Church Fathers all believed it. (see many quotes posted upthread). That’s good enough for me.
We will just have to agree to disagree.
I see the disconnect. This does demonstrate how a seemingly subtle change in beliefs can alter a religion significantly.
I’ve heard it said that two men can have, as their top three priorities, Family, health and job, yet be two completely different men, depending on the order they put those priorities.
In this case, I see myself as someone who will need the blood of Christ as much the day I die as I did before I accepted Him as my savior. The reason is simple. A little leaven leavens the whole loaf. Any sin at all makes me unworthy. And Christ made it clear with his “looks at a woman with lust in his heart” that I am damned without his covering.
This means I agree with Luther.
Also, I do not believe in the existence of purgatory. I believe you live, you die, and you face judgement. Which direction you go at judgement depends on whether you are written in the book of life. And that depends on whether I trusted in the blood of Christ to cover my sins. And even then, there is this:
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?
I believe all my efforts to be good in any way to be “more deserving” of an eternal relationship with God are misguided. My efforts should be for one purpose only: to please Him.
Bluntly it is always up to God, whether you are in this life or the next. Prayers are TO God for the final sanctification of the dead
Maccabees and the rest of the Deuterocanonical books are part of the Septuagint, the OT that was references by Christ and the Apostles.
those in the process of final sanctification/purgatory are already going to heaven.
huh? Everyone needs/needed the Savior. Christ saved those in Gehenna and Christ saves us all.
Yes. I understand the controversy. I became a Christian back in 1981. Other than the bible, apologetic, and prophesy, this has been a topic I’ve studied. I don’t consider it scripture.
Sorry about that. We just disagree.
False analogy -- those dead are judged and going to heaven or hell. you cannot alter their just reward. Purgatory/final sanctification is the final stage in the sanctification process for those going to heaven.
The salvation, i.e the sanctification process is done by the grace of God, by the blood of the Lamb, but Christ's one-time sacrifice on the cross
as we all die sanctified to a large extent by this grace,and since heaven has no sin, we who are heading to heaven receive this final sanctification/purgatory "before" going to heaven (note this is not a period of time or a place)
very well said.
—Bluntly it is always up to God...—
Actually, it is up to you. I look at it this way. Grace (the one thing that is missing from all religions other than Christianity), and it’s core point) is a present under the Christmas tree. God did his part by putting it there.
I can choose to open it and accept the gift, or I can open it and reject it, but once I die, I’ve lost that option. Whatever choice I made while in my Natural Man body, is the one I carry with me to the Great White Throne Judgement.
Saved, yet not admittable without further prayer.
Saved, yet still ‘dirty’.
Saved, yet those white robes are not quite white.
I guess in the final analysis, we’ll find out on the other side. I’ll put All my trust in Jesus to get me there, because He is my ‘purging’, while others may elect to rely on mans prayers to get them there.
Thank you. It’s sad how many refuse to think through the implications of what they say.
You confuse the destination with the journey. It's like saying "since I believe in air travel, there is no need for air planes." Because Christ is your savior, you will be purified. Not in spite of it. You are in no way, shape or form suitable for Heaven as you are right now. Before you can enter Heaven, you must be made pure. That's what Purgatory is, the cleansing of the soul before entering into the Lord's Presence. The wiping of the feet before entering the room.
You have been told already. Several times. Every person in Purgatory is going to "get there." They have been saved because of their reliance on Jesus. Why do you persist in the error of thinking they rely on man's efforts?
Do you believe that when a faithful, saved person prays, that this is a competition with God? Or would it be better described as the pray-er acting congruent with the Will of God? Why, then, do you continue to act as if a prayer for mercy for the suffering is an attempt to thwart God's Will?
And absolutely appropriate to someone who ignores multiple earlier posted references that answer their question, in particular #27, and drools out a smart alec, "show me" Obviously, someone who does that either isn't reading or is pretending that all the earlier posts of exactly whey they are asking for are worthless. Either way, any response at all is more than is merited because the questioner isn't going to read anything anyway.
True. And if you die saved, you are going to heaven. And you go through final sanctification/purgatory.
For someone who has lost that option and refused the gift, they go to hell, no purgatory.
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