Posted on 11/02/2011 9:26:44 AM PDT by DogwoodSouth
Well, I'm not a theological expert, so I can't explain exactly how praying for anyone (dead or not) works. I just know that we are commanded to pray for one another. Scripture commands us to "pray without ceasing" (1 Thessalonians 5:17) and specifically demands that we intercede "for one another" (James 5:16) and that we pray "for all" (1 Timothy 2:1). There are no qualifiers in these instructions; nothing that would act as though death has separated the Body of Christ or made prayers ineffective. In addition to this, we know that praying for the souls of the dead was a Jewish practice that Christians continued. 2 Maccabees 12:46 reads: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from sins."
Interestingly, the Apostle Paul seems to refer to praying for the dead (in this case, his friend Onesiphorus) in his second letter to Timothy. Specifically, he wrote (important part highlighted): "May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chains, but when he was in Rome, he sought me diligently, and found me (the Lord grant to him to find the Lord's mercy on that day); and in how many things he served at Ephesus, you know very well." At the very least, reasonable people could conclude that at the time Paul wrote this, Onesiphorus had died and left behind a family (i.e. "house"), and that Paul was praying in the highlighted words that Onesiphorus would be granted God's mercy on the Day of Judgement.
(Excerpt) Read more at southernfriedcatholicism.com ...
“St. Augustine teaches ....”
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That’s as far as I read. WOULD IT HELPED IF I SHOUT?
I’ve already told you I’m not interested in Catholic dogma.
The Catholic Church is the New Testament Church. BTW, it looks like you just called your own theology manmade.
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Wrong and wrong. The Catholic Church didn’t show up until the 3rd Century. And I’ve already made my claim that my Christianity is based on God’s perfect Word. And not the word of some pope. Yet you have the audacity to claim the Bible is a manmade theology?
Do you believe God regards ignorance as a virtue.
It is one thing to have an intellectual disagreement with another’s doctrine.
But quite another to hold close a doctrine whose answer to inquiry is to hold one’s fingers in one’s ears and shout “nyah nyah nyah I can’t hear you!”
If one is saved then one is released from sin at death and if one is not saved all the prayer in the world will do them no good. For it is appointed once to live and die and then the judgment.
***{12:46} Therefore, it is a holy and beneficial thought to pray on behalf of those who have passed away, so that they may be released from sins.***
If that is all there is to saving someone, let’s all fall to our knees and pray, so that ALL MEN, living or dead, will be released from their sins. No need for Jesus to die. No need to believe in Jesus as your savior. Just make sure someone prays for your sins to be released. Maybe make it a section of your will, that whoever prays hardest gets the most money.
I remember asking the priest, are some souls stuck in Limbo and can we help get them out?
So, if I follow you correctly, anyone who prays is announcing to the world that he doesn’t need Jesus?
Interesting.
Or maybe, just maybe, give it a thought. Maybe people pray because they realize they need God’s mercy and there is no way they can earn it.
Wow, that came out of left field. That’s not what I am saying at all.
Really? So when you pray it’s not because you believe prayer is all that there is to saving someone?
Why do you assume then, that others believe that prayer has no relation to God or Jesus or the Cross or anything else?
If we really believed prayer for the dead was a magic incantation that saved anyone despite their life choices and with no relation to Jesus, you might have a point.
Unfortunately, Catholicism is not the caricature found on too many websites and comic books.
2 Maccabees is scripture.
knarf,
when attempting to pick apart a scriptural dissertation, your best bet is likely to involve point-by-point matters of context and interpretation, rather than “your every point is false.” These aren’t my points, regardless. They belong to a website, to whom I gave proper credit. But more importantly, they belong to the Church.
Regarding Luke, chapter 16, you may want to read some good Bible commentary. Try Catena Aurea.
If you read but three of all those scriptural citations, you skimmed, and in honesty, defeated any chance of gaining understanding. My intent was to give you, and others, a scriptural foundation for why we pray for the poor souls in Purgatory. This does not mean that I expect you to necessarily agree, only that I wished to convey information, in hopes of openmindedness.
While I get the general gist of your analogy, please remember, since I have five kids, 257.98 might very well be our groceries. ;)
Seriously, I do question authority, in the proper setting. However, the authority we’re currently talking about was given by the second person of the Holy Trinity, Jesus Christ. His authority I’ll happily take any day, and gladly die for, if He so desires. I am far from perfect. But no matter whether you agree with me or disagree with me, one thing remains: I am His, and will always strive to be so. Question governments, newspapers, people on the street? Sure, and I will be right there with you, and give my utmost support. Totally, and literally. The line stops with Him, though. I am not fit to question Him.
I will make this as simple as I can: my prayers to God will not remove one single sin from any man, living or dead.
Then obey it. Pray for the removal of all sin so that all men can have themselves released from sin. That’s all you have to do. Just pray, and all mankind is free from sin.
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Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.
>>Praying for the dead suggests that once they pass this life that we, or they, can alter their just reward<<
God has no time. You put the limitation of the Earth going around the Sun on God. God is outside of time and your prayers for a living soul has nothing to do with his/her earthly body.
Everlasting life is a promise from God. Not everlasting but asleep or everlasting in suspended animation, it’s everlasting. Period.
And the Catholic Church doesn't teach that our prayers will remove any sins or that they could. If there are Catholics people who think so, they don't understand what the Church teaches any better non-Catholics who accept whatever falsehoods they hear as if they were fact.
Prayers for the dead are prayers for the Father to have further mercy on those who are being purified and to make that purification process as short and painless as possible in keeping with the perfect Justice of God. Christ sacrificing Himself for us forgave all of our sins if we accept Christ as God, and that's the only way any sin is removed from us. Our prayers can't remove anything but they can petition the Father for further mercy, that's all. The sins we've committed and continue to commit mix all sorts of impurities in with the pure gold we were created from.
We still have to be refined before we can enter heaven and just like there are various grades of ore there are various grades of obedience to bearing our cross in this life. Obedience in this life drives out impurities the same way ore passing through a stamping mill is broken down so many types of impurities can be separated and shaken loose prior to the the ore going into the furnace. The impurities that remain are handled in the fire of the final refining process, and that final process is what became known as purgatory. Prayers for those who need further refining are petitions for further mercy from God the Father, not prayers anyone expects to remove any sin.
They're prayers we can reasonably expect our Father might respond to and ease the pain of the refining process or shorten the duration of that process for the ones we're praying for. Is that reduction in severity or duration a removal of any sins? No, in no way, God is perfectly Just and you will pay every bit you owe, but God is also Merciful and will reward those who have sufficient faith in His Mercy to pray that He will grant Mercy to those who are suffering.
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