Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS.
Explore the Churchs conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
Your good buddies' statements shows a lot...
Do you have any explanation for God predestining people to hell? Why would one believe that God programs people to do evil and says that those he programmed to do evil will then be pushed into hell forever -- isn't that psychopathic -- why does your believe it?
Why does your little incoherent cult prefer to sing and dance on the edges of its mental oblivion instead of worshipping God?
Why does your group abstain from reading Bibles, when discussing matters; rather it is the pre-saved self-declared folks who post precanned preformatted snippets. Let's face it, your posts take the occasional snippet taken out of context and implied to mean other than it implies.
Why do you follow your cult's perversion of the true Gospel? --> St. Paul refers to your cults as indicators of the fall.
however, no worries -- just like earlier cults, yours is doomed to fail as it is not built on the solid foundation of God's word.
look at Matthew 4:17-25
17 7 From that time on, Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." 18 8 As he was walking by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon who is called Peter, and his brother Andrew, casting a net into the sea; they were fishermen. 19 He said to them, "Come after me, and I will make you fishers of men." 20 9 At once they left their nets and followed him. 21 He walked along from there and saw two other brothers, James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John. They were in a boat, with their father Zebedee, mending their nets. He called them, 22 and immediately they left their boat and their father and followed him. 23 10 He went around all of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, 11 proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and curing every disease and illness among the people. 24 12 His fame spread to all of Syria, and they brought to him all who were sick with various diseases and racked with pain, those who were possessed, lunatics, and paralytics, and he cured them. 25 And great crowds from Galilee, the Decapolis, 13 Jerusalem, and Judea, and from beyond the Jordan followed him. |
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.' 24 12 "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. 25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock. 26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined." 28 13 When Jesus finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 14 for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes. |
How were they described? They were astonished!!! Not converted, not baptized, not made believers, just astonished. Just as the Pharisees and the Sadducees were. Let us go to the Plain.
Luke 6: 12 3 In those days he departed to the mountain to pray, and he spent the night in prayer 4 to God. 13 When day came, he called his disciples to himself, and from them he chose Twelve, 5 whom he also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, 6 and his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, 15 Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called a Zealot, 7 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, 8 who became a traitor. 17 9 And he came down with them and stood on a stretch of level ground. A great crowd of his disciples and a large number of the people from all Judea and Jerusalem and the coastal region of Tyre and Sidon 18 came to hear him and to be healed of their diseases; and even those who were tormented by unclean spirits were cured. 19 Everyone in the crowd sought to touch him because power came forth from him and healed them all.< |
People came because He healed them, not because they were baptized (or elect) believers. The Gospel does not say that. But let us turn to the last 2/3 of the chapter of Matthew 22. These give numerous examples of why the Brahminical attitude is as unScriptural as the WCF.
Matthew 22: 15 8 Then the Pharisees 9 went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech. |
Be you as stony as a Biblical execution, how can you not read these words of Jesus and repent of your and your good boddys' nonScriptural and unChristian posts?
All we hear are whines and slurs from your crowd. As I pointed out about sanctification, remember my above statment is a process BY God on us, provided by Christ, but it IS a process as is clearly defined in scripture:
Hebrews 12:14 gives a clear biblical basis as to why final sanctification is necessary. It says, Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord (NIV). Now, is this the holiness we receive by faith alone? If so, why is the writer of Hebrews telling these believers that they must attain to a degree of holiness in order to see the Lord? Forgiveness of sins is one thing; becoming actually holy is quite another.
Purgatory is the final stage of sanctification, the sanctification without which no one will see God (Heb 12:14). And nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lambs book of life (Rev 21:27).
This is explicity indicated in
"Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become manifest; for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)Jesus himself adds to this when he speaks in Matthew 12:32 of a sin which will neither be forgiven in this age nor the age to come, implying that some sins (venial ones of which we have not repented before death) will be forgiven when we repent the first moment of our afterlife.
note the words of Paul -- our sins are forgiven, we are being saved -- the sacrifice of Christ forgave all sins, but we are being saved -- we who are saved are being saved -- in the sanctification process.
Post our death, we who are saved are not 'punished' anymore - the "final sanctification"/"purgatory" is not "punishment", but we who are saved are prepared, by the blood of the lamb, in the last "stage" of the sanctification process for entry into heaven
this is not a place, not a period of time as it is outside this space-time concept of ours. It is the final "stage" of the sanctification process and it is not punishment either.
Unfortunately some like your cults get stuck in words, but the meaning is the same: final sanctification or purgatory, but are not "punishments", it is for those already saved and it is done by the grace of God, the sacrifice of Christ that forgave all sins and sanctifies us by the power of the Holy Spirit through the blood of the lamb
VERY well said, Cronos. Now if the horses would drink, they’d find it the best water they’ve ever (or ever will) have. I’m seriously thinking that serial praying is in order. As in, I think that rather than just periodically praying for these folks, I am going to make it a regular part of my prayer life. You’ve definitely sewn up the loose ends of this thread.
RCs are no strangers to different opinions. The infallible magisterium is held to have infallibly defined the actual meaning of only a few verses, and how many times it has spoken (out of potentially hundreds of times) is a matter of interpretation, and theologian interpret those that are, and her doctrinal parameters leave RCs great liberty to interpret Scripture to support her church, even if sources such as the CCC do not, and in which their is disagreement.
Amen, although the latter verse is speaking about election, and does not reject works as the manifestation by which saving faith is manifested and saints rewarded for. As God is faithful and true. And far from marginalizing works, while the Reformers (incld Luther) stressed their importance, and today evangs manifest more commitment in this area then their institutionalized counterparts.
It is true that leaders teachers and pastors are primary subjects, but all are building the church by making disciples, directly or indirectly, and will be rewarded accordingly. “Wisdom is justified of her children.” (Mt. 11:19)
“Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.” (Acts 8:4)
“Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.” (Acts 11:19)
thanks. With that I see no point in playing the games these folks want to play. Instead we will focus on what is more important — God and pray.
I understand that but I was specifically trying to show that 1 Cor 3 Paul had been addressing the leadership of the church in order to point out that it meant building the church rather then a personal purgatory.
In post 459. Where did Chrst sy their faith would save them? Let's be literal here..
It was in response to boatbums post about faith being what saves and not works. In it she said that the people who thought works were what saved them were told I never knew you. The intent of your 459 was rather clear to me and Im sure others as well.
Right here...
Both groups are believers, however, not everyone is fully sanctified and every one -- mature and immature is to be tested by his works after he dies
You claim every person is to be tested by his works...That's not true and that's not what the scriptures said...
Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Every man's WORK shall be made manifest and the fire will test every man's work...
No man will be tested...
It's pretty simple and it works like this:
A man writes two lists of things he done as a Christian...One list for things he's done for the Lord and will receive rewards for...Another list of the things he has done that may even remove rewards from God...
At the Judgment seat of Christ, Jesus will look at the list of bad, or not so good things and burn up the list...That list is no longer part of his history...
The good list was also set to fire but it wouldn't burn...It passed thru the fire...
The man suffers loss because he wasted so much of his time doing things that did not benefit the Lord and he lost out on many rewards... But he is still saved and, as yet by fire since the fire burned up any record of the man that in other situations could have brought condemnation...
It's as simple as that...The man does not get judged...He has been judged already and found to be just...
It’s just so simple to understand. A person would have to be purposely ignoring the words to miss this.
No. What's sneaky, not to mention disingenuous and intellectually dishonest and a cop out, is to deflect the argument and turn it around on someone to avoid giving the apology that you ought.
bb cannot read anybody's mind. If you want to know what someone thinks on limited atonement and double predestination and covenant theology, ask THEM yourself.
But don't throw that responsibility back on someone in a bid to avoid manning up and apologizing when you've been proved wrong.
saved, and according to our works do not belong in the same sentence together...
If you are trying to get saved according to your works, you will be judged according to your works and you will fail...You can not possibly have works good enough to survive condemnation...
That is not my post. Mad Dog was right.
Can protestants not read scripture? It was the people who did NOTHING who were cast into the outer dwrkmess. and the people who helped the sick, imprisoned, naked and hungry who were surprised that they had done anything for Christ, until He told them, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these, ye have done it unto Me>" They were saved. I'm starting to wonder about all yall. Can't you see you've gotten it exactly backward?
There are plenty of rules but that one is toward the top of the list...
That's because you guys can't interpret scripture...Scripture is spiritually discerned...You do a fine job of twisting and wresting the scripture to your own destruction tho...
The irony is that every affirmation of Sola Scriptura, and every "show me in Scripture" demand to attempt to refute Catholicism is an appeal to the authority of the Catholic episcopacy that established the Canon and the Magisterium that interpreted the Scripture for the establishment of Christian orthodoxy. They would have us believe that the Church has an on / off switch that only a Protestant knows when and how to activate and then shriek and insult when we can't take them seriously.
So where does the authority come from to establish your Catholic episcopacy and the Canon of the scriptures and you magisterium???
I could only find two for paragolic interpretation and they both said don't believe anything Judith Anne says...
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