Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
And in the final sanctification/purgatory we are purified solely by Christ. Christ does the saving. We are purified by the blood of the Lamb, by the power of the Holy Spirit
I will leave you to your nihilism. And yet I will pray. You are welcome to your opinion. But since you have supposition, not fact, I will leave you to it. Good day.
Indeed the sanctification of the saved is a lifetime process..completed when we see Him
2 Corinthians 3:16-18
16But when one[a] turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
1 John 3:2 “Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is”
Sanctification is not a work of men..it is a gift of God ...we can never sanctify ourselves...
Catholics are determined to make their salvation and sanctification all about them
I too wonder about those who preach about the timelessness of God's knowledge with respect to predestination, yet deny God could have predetermined Mary's sinlessness or prejudged Mary and found her sinless. They preach a belief in the resurrection of the dead yet deny that Mary could have already been resurrected. They profess for themselves a qualification for a "rapture" not found in Scripture but deny that Mary could have been "taken up". What do they think "magnify the Lord" and "mother of my Lord" mean?
I have witnessed pious and sincere Protestants in pilgrimages to the Holy Land brought to tears in Bethlehem and Jerusalem because of its physical connection to Jesus, yet they completely and utterly deny Mary was the most tangible point of the intersection of God with mankind. They are in error.
Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." - Matt 22:29-32
Just show us where Christ or the disciples ever taught the sinless mary... or the assumption of mary ... it is all Catholic static..meant to have men take their eyes off of Christ..
You don't have to "pay" for anything because you can't "pay" -- Christ does the "paying" or rather did in our past at the Cross. He saved us, is saving us and we WILL BE saved by the blood of the lamb, by the grace of the Holy Spirit.
You can never "pay enough" to get the final sanctification/purgatory by the lamb.
your post is false, just like the earlier post where the post falsely MD of saying something he didn't
So God needs us purged why again??? LOL
The God portrayed by Scripture is that of a loving father.
One has to wonder what kind of mentality would dream up the crucifixion for Jesus to pay for our sins and then demand that we suffer even more for our sins ourselves.
It’s no wonder so many people have doubts about their salvation and being accepted by God. He’s being portrayed as a harsh, intolerant, demanding, perfectionist task master who’s just barely holding back from zotting you for the least infraction.
Sin before you get to confession again on Saturday? Too bad for you. zzzzzzzzttttt. Hell for you. You just weren’t good enough for Him.
That’s the beauty of the freedom we have in Christ. We know that even if we sin, as we humans are so prone to do and God KNOWS that, that we’re still His children and don’t have to fear going to hell because we don’t make the grade.
It’s not freedom to sin, as some Catholics like to portray it. It’s freedom to fail; freedom to be human. Freedom in the security of a perfect God’s perfect love.
I don't know whether to laugh of cry.
MARY?!?! made all that perfection possible?!?!?! MARY?!?!?!
You have got to be kidding. Mary had nothing to do with all that perfection. It's from God.
Silly me. All these years I thought God was the one who made perfection possible and now I learn that it was Mary's doing.
Good grief........
I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't read it with my own eyes.
I vote cry.
Idolatry, idolatry, idolatry. No matter how they 'splain it, it all shakes out the same.
Hoss
I can agree because that simply can not be done by man. Where I think we disagree is the fact that I believe only the Blood Of Christ makes and restores all things righteous before GOD including the immediate healing of our spirit being. It alone is The Purification process.
These are not disagreements that sends one too hell nor condemns by any means. They are theological differences of opinion. There was such in the early churches amongst the disciples and apostles and will be such till Christ returns for us.
When I leave this world I look forward too seeing my very recently departed dad {who was my best friend} and my first wife, my brother who died before I was born, aunts, uncles, grandparents, and many others. My dads sister was Catholic I look forward too seeing her too as she'll be in heaven I have no doubt. Our earthly family reunions are very diverse LOL. Yes I even saw a Mormon cousin trying to console another cousin at a funeral of her grandmother my dads sister.
I also have known some very narrow minded Baptist who think their church is The Church and all others are going to hell especially Catholics. I'm Baptist BTW but do not hold that belief whatsoever.
For whatever reasons and I think it was disagreements much like Paul and Barnabas which split off two believers into different paths {establishment of churches} serving the same Lord and Savior which spread the Gospel too many more places. That is also the way I look at the splits in the churches over Theological differences. They have served to further spread The Gospel too all nations. Christ will bring them all back together in His time. If a person is Catholic and that is where GOD has called them too be I say stay there and I say the same with being Baptist. Be where the Holy Spirit places you because your mission given you in this world may not be the same path as the one given your neighbor.
I recently watched and cared for one precious too me die from the torment of cancer. That person was ready to go be with The Lord and stated so to family, friends, and visiting preachers. The final more intense torment went on for a month. The last 3-5 days were especially rough. It was in those days I stopped praying for healing and started praying for the persons release from their pain of this world and to go be with The Father. I do not see that prayer as being wrong but a prayer of mercy for a loved one. It is appointed to man to die. Although the suffering meant nothing in the way of the persons salvation one way or the other it ended at death. The instant death came possibly before as one can dismiss their spirit the persons spirit was in the presence of GOD. The earthly body was put in the earth a few days later.
Now the other thing I saw. The person in the final few days lost ability too swallow any liquids. Yet he would hold his hand as holding a glass in a drinking position even with lips moving and smile with satisfaction the same with eating. A week or two earlier he told me he sensed a presence of someone being in the room even over him at times though no one was in the room but him. I suspect GOD's Angels ministering to him or the comfort of The Holy Spirit was that presence. Physical death is the price of sin. Spiritual eternal damnation is the price of the absolute rejection of Christ.
We do in fact suffer the consiquences of our sins even after salvation while hear in this world. If you steal GOD will forgive but the justice system likely will not and you do your sentence here on earth for that deed and suffer the results of the deed here on earth. That is why we should forgive other. It is highly important too our happiness while in this world. Not forgiving and letting it take over your thinking can make you physically ill.
Luke 16:19-32
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’
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25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
1. They were judged by what they did in their lifetime.
“And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us”
2. Rich man’s status could never be changed. No prayer or anything would change that
“31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.”
3. Again, nothing will change them, if they did not listen while on earth nothing can be done for them
Matt 12:36-37 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
4. You will be judged by your words not prayers of others and no prayer of anyone will ever override this.
Luke 16:19-32
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’
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25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
1. They were judged by what they did in their lifetime.
“And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us”
2. Rich man’s status could never be changed. No prayer or anything would change that
“31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.”
3. Again, nothing will change them, if they did not listen while on earth nothing can be done for them
Matt 12:36-37 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
4. You will be judged by your words not prayers of others and no prayer of anyone will ever override this.
We'll have to disagree on that one. I believe there are also two Baptisms. One is part of public profession of faith and the other is the one of salvation Baptism by the Blood Of Christ the instant we accept Christ as Lord and Savior. At that time we are under Grace and no longer condemnation.
Matthew ch 3 11“I baptize with£ water those who turn from their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is far greater than I am—so much greater that I am not even worthy to be his slave.£ He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.£ 12He is ready to separate the chaff from the grain with his winnowing fork. Then he will clean up the threshing area, storing the grain in his barn but burning the chaff with never-ending fire.”
The never ending fire. That is a mighty long purification. As hard as we may try {and BTW we should try not too sin} we can not overcome our sins alone even after salvation. To have to go beyond having to have our sins or imperfection purified or re-washed after that point re-crucifies Christ. It can't be done. At the acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior our sinful being is dead and with it the sins. At that point till we leave this world in death. Our sins before and after receiving Grace are too be cast into the lake of fire at the end time.
But how can Christ forgive the sins you commit afterward? He already has. Before you were born GOD knew the total sins of your life before and after. He knew after salvation you would clock out 5 minutes early staling money from your employer. He knew the name and curse you would give to the guy who cut you off driving home on the road. He knew you would lie to aunt Ethel about her new dress. He knew you would be angry at Joe up the street who got the promotion you didn't. He already knew and he has already forgiven. Imagine such a loving GOD that even though He knows before you even existed He still forgives you unconditionally if you accept His plan of salvation. Yes He also knew before they were born those who would forever be against him like Herod, Pharaoh, and many others. He knew and He told His children if you call on the name of My Son Jesus Christ in earnest for your salvation and forgivness of your sins I will forgive you now and forever your sins and you will be healed.
If it was complete then why add a New Testament at all?
Are you now asserting that if Jesus Christ Himself did not say it it is not legitimate?
(Is there some reason you failed to capitalize "Mary" other than holding her in contempt or disregard?)
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