Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS.
Explore the Churchs conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
You are so right! I kept asking if they had watched the bideos!
Oops
You are so right! I kept asking if they had watched the videos!
Purgatory is the same thing. We can't possibly hold the wiegh tof our sins, so Jesus did for us. But you still don't get a free ride.
Honestly!
Well, we can't have that. It's what lets those so inclined accept queers being married and ordained, abortion, contraception, and so on. Just yesterday someone enlightened me as to how that very approach lends itself to "proving" that such things are perfectly acceptable according to the Bible.
I have to admit, those arguing for queers being married have as tidy and well connected an application of, "The Lego Block Method of Scripture Interpretation" as any of the other rationalizations of heresy people love to proclaim as truth based on their personal understanding and the guidance of whatever spirit they hear from. So, why drag that heavy cross around instead of just letting it all hang out and doing whatever you please? One way or another, someone will be able to stick the blocks together and rationalize it.
Besides, we're forgiven before we even sin, so what's the difference? It all comes down to linen and wool, that's the key to everything. It's linen and wool all the way down just like it's turtles all the way down.
Regards
Good explanation.
I would challenge you to read the article, not just the headline, watch the video and then read the post with all the Scriptural references and rebut them. Instead you argue like a liberal.
Honestly, if you are a Christian and you think that Catholics are wrong you would want to convince them that they are wrong and the way to convince intelligent people that they are wrong is to present evidence, not feeling.
How did this clear the air?
Jesus died once to cover ALL of our sins.
Some souls may well be purified in Hell between now and the FINAL judgement. That is not for me to say. It does not make sense to our finite minds that a person who lived a relatively moral life but never accepted Jesus as his personal savior should suffer the same ultimate punishment as a mass murderer, just as it makes no sense that the same mass murderer can accept Jesus and go to paradise.
Since the parable of Lazarus and the rich man didn’t take, as it were, on the cross Jesus said to the thief who believed on him “This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise”. He did NOT say as soon as you pay back that last dude you stole from, or suffer enough to make up for it, then you may enter heaven.
This mingling of Karma into Biblical teaching is not a plan of Salvation “so simple a child may understand”.
There is no salvation through works, penance or having someone else pray you into it. There is no purgatory.
No matter how much you lawyer around about it by men more studied in the Bible than I am, Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME!” It’s not through Mary, a Priest in a Confessional, through your works, or someone praying for you after death.
In Matt. 5:48 that perfection is accomplished through the Blood of Jesus covering our sins, not through any of our works or lack of works.
In Luke 16:19-31, of course the rich man still had compassion (worry) for his brothers. He sees them headed for the same place! His worry is part of his torture. However, there is no compassion in Hell from the Devil or God for people receiving punishment. Lazarus did not get to dip the tip of his finger in water to moisten the rich man’s tongue.
The interpretation provided for Matt 12:32 has more logical holes than a screen door and greatly overcomplicates a simple statement. I agree there is no forgiveness in any afterlife, soooooo why would there be forgiveness in purgatory, assuming it even exists? It does not imply a third state of afterlife either, regardless of WHAT Catholic doctrine has been for however long.
Luke 12:47-48 is speaking neither of heaven or hell but of the final judgement. What was the point again?
Conflating Paul’s letter to the church at Corinth with something in Maccabees (not inspired writing) wins zero points. If it isn’t a book in the KJV, it isn’t a book of the Bible. Read Corinthians again in an inspired translation. Paul is speaking AGAINST such monkey business.
Phil. 2:10 Under the earth is clearly HELL! Everyone will acknowlege God, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. Even the Demons know him now and tremble.
2Timothy concerning Onesiphorous, “that day” is the final judgement.
Hebrews 12:14 Holiness is provided freely through the blood of Jesus covering our sins. The Gospels are quite plain.
Hebrews 12:23 Again, the blood of the Son covering our sins, making us perfect in the sight of God.
As for the spirits in the prison of 1Peter, those were real, live prisoners he was praying for who believed in the simple plan of Salvation provided through Jesus’ death and resurrection.
As for the rest of the examples provided from the New Testament, the final heaven and final earth will not be here until after the FINAL JUDGEMENT. That is why rightous (saved by Grace through the blood of Jesus) souls go to PARADISE, and the others go to HELL. ALL SOULS WILL BE PASSED THROUGH THE FINAL JUDGEMENT.
The Old Testament examples of prayers for the dead is a non-starter. We are under the New Covenant of Salvation through Jesus.
I refuse to acknowledge Baruch as well. I had just as soon study the gnostics or the Mayan calender. If it’s not in the KJV, it ain’t Bible and is subject to the warning at the end of Revelation concerning adding and subtracting from His Word.
The entirety of your PartII is conflation of the final judgement with what happens at death, and reading things into passages that are not there.
As for the early historical stuff, you can find good justification for Luther’s Theses.
So, I guess we’ll just agree to disagree. I know he who is convinced against his will is not convinced at all. Furthermore, I doubt this will or can be solved in this limited forum currently at our disposal.
Speaking of the mainly political nature OF this forum, as long as you believe; this Nation was set up to govern a moral and religious people and is wholly inadequate for any other, that Jesus DID NOT tell the rich young ruler to give his money to Zaccheus (sic?) so the government could give it to the poor, and trusting the government to do the work of the Church (care for the poor, etc.) is a form of Blasphemy, I’m going to call you an ally and friend.
As for our differences in Christian interpretations, some great man of God (can’t recall right now) believed in “Unity where we agree, Liberty where we disagree, and Charity for ALL.”
It’s been fun, but I must go chop a windshield now.
May the Lord bless us enough to continue later!
Me too. But then again, I guess I pretty much like the choice that Jesus gave in John 3:3, be Born Again or go to hell.
Ya, I'd rather have heaven than purgatory any day. Especially since being Born Again is so easy.
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{{{sigh}}}. It’s just never ending. The Never Ending Story of Salvation through faith and works. No matter the religious affiliation, the words are all the same. Faith + works = salvation. THe only thing that adds up to is an eternity in hell. And that is not finite.
Through, yes. By? No.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
And this one which no one can get around:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
In our thought, the second sentence has nothing to do with the first.
That's the problem, or a part of it. Some people do not argue against our doctrine but against something else.
You just said Some souls may well be purified in Hell between now and the FINAL judgement.
Offhand I don't see an important difference between this and the core of the teaching about purgatory.
It does not make sense to our finite minds that a person who lived a relatively moral life but never accepted Jesus as his personal savior should suffer the same ultimate punishment as a mass murderer, just as it makes no sense that the same mass murderer can accept Jesus and go to paradise.If by 'paradise' you mean heaven (which we do not) I have no problem with this. It's grace in the later case and unprofitable works in the first.
The brigand on the cross wash recipient of extraordinary grace and was doing an intense penance. So even if Jesus did mean "heaven" when he said "paradise" this does not contradict our teaching.Not everyone goes through a purgation after death.
This mingling of Karma into Biblical teaching is not a plan of Salvation so simple a child may understand.soooooo why would there be forgiveness in purgatory, assuming it even exists?
Those being purged are already forgiven. If you saw the video the people are on the island because they think they have been forgiven,not to earn forgiveness.
So, I guess well just agree to disagree...
And one of the disagreements will be about what we actually teach. You have not argued against our teaching,not very much. You have argued against something else.
As for faith and works:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.Clearly salvation leads to (and through?) good works. Or is Paul in hell too?
“IN CHRIST” is your key here. What does it mean to be IN CHRIST to Catholics? And how does one get IN CHRIST?
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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