Posted on 09/02/2011 9:07:47 AM PDT by marshmallow
Minneapolis, Minnesota (CNN) –Prior to 2006, few people even knew that then-Minnesota state legislator Keith Ellison was a Muslim. Because of his English name, he said, no one thought to ask.
But five years ago, when he ran for a seat in the United States House of Representatives - a race he would go on to win - word of his religious affiliation began to spread.
“When I started running for Congress it actually took me by surprise that so many people were fascinated with me being the first Muslim in Congress,” said Ellison, a Democrat now serving his third term in the House.
“But someone said to me, ‘Look Keith, think of a person of Japanese origin running for Congress six years after Pearl Harbor–this might be a news story.’”
Though Ellison's status as the first Muslim elected to Congress is widely known, fewer are aware that he was born into a Catholic family in Detroit and was brought up attending Catholic schools.
But he said he was never comfortable with that faith.
“I just felt it was ritual and dogma,” Ellison said. “Of course, that’s not the reality of Catholicism, but it’s the reality I lived. So I just kind of lost interest and stopped going to Mass unless I was required to.”
It wasn’t until he was a student at Wayne State University in Detroit when Ellison began, “looking for other things.”
(Excerpt) Read more at religion.blogs.cnn.com ...
No, you are kidding yourself. Your apparent understanding of Scripture is highly flawed and your statements on the actual Apostolic Traditions of the Church are ludicrous. Besides monitoring the discussions in the Religion Forum what have you ever done to put yourself in a position of actually knowing anything of Catholic doctrine regarding Apostolic Tradition?
Tell you what, when you are actually in a position to intelligently discuss both Scripture and Catholic doctrine get back to me.
No we don't...We carry on like we know that your tradition is another gospel, an alternative to scripture...
Tradition only explains, clarifies, and augments Scripture, filling in the blanks and connecting the dots. It resolves apparent conflicts. It never contradicts Scripture, ever.
Pitiful...Scripture explains and clarifies all the scripture you will ever read...
There are no blanks or connecting dots that do not connect...Your tradition creates conflicts, it doesn't resolve anything...And it definitely contradicts scripture...
Protestants do not reject Tradition, they only reject the authority of the Church
Your religion has no authority over Christians and especially not the scriptures...Jesus is the Head...Jesus is the authority...And we have the words of Jesus, preserved to and thru his disciples ultimately put into a medium where we can say, 'it is written'...What person seeking Jesus would reject those words in favor of your made up tradition???
And we BOTH know when that will be...
Romans Psalms 103 1-2, 3-4, 9-10-, 11-12 Matt 18: 21-35;Rom 14:7-9
These are the Scripture readings for today. Your statement that the Catholic Church does not use scripture at all with the exception of people's names is demonstrably, clearly, verifiably and genuinely FALSE.
I envision the magisterium sitting around a huge round table, crayons in hand, "2137...oh here's 2138 up here...2139..where..is...oh, here it is.." and so on until the last dot remains. They look at the picture, and slowly look at each other...two horns..a pitchfork..beedy eyes..cloven hooves..
I most certainly did, I just didn't read the KJV. Clearly, you are used a flawed translation to derive your doctrine.
Offering clearly incorrect numbers from Rummel as a “middle ground” is nonsensical.
Also, I can see you know nothing about history with this astonishingly erroneous comment:
“Would anyone seriously trust an accused regime’s records as “the” authentic original source document?”
With the inquisition and in regard to the number of people questioned, tried and executed later by the state, the answer according to all modern, reputable historians is yes. You make the mistake of comparing the inquisition to a “regime”. It wasn’t, not anywhere. It did not have the modern regime’s need to create or hide statistics. Also, in regard to those questioned, the records are almost verbatim records. Again, they are always trustworthy in regard to numbers.
“If this were the holocaust instead of the inquisition, wouldn’t we raise an eyebrow if someone claimed that the only deaths that should count are the ones where a Jew was executed after a trial according to German law at the time?”
Your comparison is nonsensical. The Nazis had a deliberate program of extermination. Thus, those they exterminated through murder or horrendous treatment in camps would naturally count toward the total number of Jews murdered by the Nazis. The inquisitional was not multi-national, but usually local. It was not commissioned or empowered to kill anyone ever under any circumstances. The numbers Rummel puts forward are bogus.
“Were Jews even considered German or human for that matter during the holocaust?”
No. But the inquisition never lost sight of the humanity of those it investigated. The goal was always to reconcile heretics to God, the Church and society.
You wrote:
“Remember that Rummel’s PhD is in Political Science.”
Right, he’s not an historian.
“Rummel considers all such things and lays the blame on the government authorizing the death whether directly, indirectly. In the case of the inquisition, he includes both Catholic and Protestant inquisitions (inquisition in Spain, Portugal, Netherlands and New World) from the 16th to 18th centuries. And Rummel puts the deaths of Aztecs, American Indians et al in separate categories on the same table even though many would reasonably argue that it was part of “winning” the world for Christ, i.e. forced conversions.”
Sorry, it makes no sense in any case.
“I have no idea at all what if anything Rummel thinks of the findings of these newer studies – or how he would weight the documents offered by the Vatican. But I’m fairly confident, if he believed the numbers to be better than his own, he would want to update his own statistics as he has done before. If nothing else, it could affect the “minimum” on the table.”
The truth has been known for years. Since he is not a historian, and seems to only be acquainted with decades old books, I have no reason to believe he cared much about accurate numbers from the start. His thesis is about the dangers of governmental power. It is not about numbers in themselves.
“As his website says, contact him at Hawaii.edu. His eaddy is at the bottom of his C.V.”
Again, if he honestly cared about accuracy he would have simply gone to the library or contacted a specialist.
“Natural Law and vladimir998, I am pinging you only as a courtesy. I choose not to reply to ad hominems whether directed at Rummel or me.”
Thanks for the ping. I made no ad hominem attacks. Everything I said was true.
(Jesus) Christ is the apex whether Jesus inspired the Gospel writers to write what Jesus said in their presence or whether Paul wrote what Jesus inspired him to write while Paul was the personal student of the risen Jesus Christ...
The same with Luke, Jude and Peter...Nothing Jude wrote is less authoritative that what Mark wrote...
The Gospel writers wrote what the Holy Spirit instructed them to write before Jesus went to the crucifixion and before Jesus revealed to Paul the adoption of Gentiles in the church...
After the Crucifixion, things changed immensely...Jesus set out on a new course after he was rejected by his chosen people...He then put blinders on the Jews and moved on to the Gentile adoption into the church...
Apparently Jesus put blinders on you guys as well...
OH, then I apologize. I used the wrong word. It’s not “READING” Scripture, it’s UNDERSTANDING Scripture.
Amen...
What does your Bible do with Romans 2:16?
"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." The gospel given to Paul by revelations of the risen Christ.
"flawed translation"?? I am so sorry for you. Just so sorry...
You appear to be hysterical.
Before we delve more deeply into Hebrew mindset of this statement, let me use an illustration that will bring home what God thinks of the righteous acts of men. Suppose there is a jewelry store owned by someone near and dear to you. The owner loves you so much that he mortgages his whole estate to buy a jewel just for you. He wishes to make it a gift to you. But you, because of your wish to earn the jewel, fill up a sack with soiled menstrual napkins and tampons and you take that sack to the jeweler and offer it to him as payment for the nearly priceless jewel he wishes to give to you. Would you do that? Heavens no! Nevertheless, that is exactly what a person does when he tries to work his way into heaven. He tries to pay for his salvation with a sack of soiled menstrual napkins and tampons. Disgusting? You bet! It is just that disgusting to God the Father when a person tries to substitute his own work for the work of Christ, His Son, at Calvary.
However, it is even worse than disgusting. Let us investigate the matter of a woman's monthly cycle in the light of the Old Testament Law.
Leviticus 15:19-24 And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. {20} And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. {21} And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. {22} And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. {23} And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. {24} And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean.
This passage is speaking about the monthly menstrual cycle. The word rendered 'separation' is בנדתה (b'niddataya, literally 'in her menstruation') from נדת (niddah, menstruation). Note that the woman is to be set apart from the congregation for seven days. During her period, everything she touches becomes unclean and no clean person may have contact with her or it. It anyone touches her or anything she has touched, that person is unclean until evening. If a man lies with her during her period (strictly prohibited by the Law, (Leviticus 18:19 & Leviticus 20:18 ), he is unclean for seven days. He may not set foot back into the camp for seven days. (The word flowers is another KJV rendering of an inflection of niddah, or menstruation).
Leviticus 15:28-30 But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. {29} And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. {30} And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.
After the menses have concluded, the woman is unclean for seven days. Then she must offer the sacrifice of two animals, one for a sin offering, and one for a burnt offering that pleases God.
The Israelites took the menstrual cycle very seriously. It would have disgusted them if a woman, in the midst of her monthly cycle, were to intermingle in the camp. They would avoid women during that time. A respectable woman of that time would never mingle in public when she was in the midst of her monthly cycle.
Please note that the rules mentioned above about the menstrual cycle are in keeping with the Mosaic Law. They do not apply today. We are under a New Covenant. With His sacrifice, Jesus repealed the clean/unclean Levitical laws (see Acts 10:10-15). We are observing these verses strictly to learn what God thinks about our attempts to work our way to Him.
The Israelites viewed uncleanness with much gravity. Unclean objects were never touched; the people shunned, avoided, and put them outside the camp. Unclean people were outcasts, like lepers and those with skin lesions: Leviticus 13:45-46, "And the leper in whom the plague is, his clothes shall be rent, and his head bare, and he shall put a covering upon his upper lip, and shall cry, Unclean, unclean. All the days wherein the plague shall be in him he shall be defiled; he is unclean: he shall dwell alone; without the camp shall his habitation be." The ten lepers that approached Jesus for healing kept their distance according to law (Luke 17:12-14). Unclean animals were never to be eaten. The Israelites had such an aversion to unclean things that they might become ill at the thought of eating them. Unclean things were absolutely loathing to the Israelites.
Soiled menstrual cloths were unclean because menstrual fluid, which was unclean, was upon the cloths. They were loathing to the Israelites. Because God compares the good works of men to be like those soiled cloths, it is obvious that those good works of men are also repulsive to Him. They are unclean and must stay outside of His presence. They could never be pleasing to God because of His revulsion to them.
God is repulsed when men and women attempt to please Him with their good works. Again, our works are an unclean thing. When a woman, unclean because of her monthly cycle, finished the cycle, she had to offer a sacrifice before she was again clean and allowed back into society. By the same token, since our works are unclean and compared to soiled menstrual clothes, a sacrifice must be made to cleanse them. Since all of our works are like soiled menstrual cloths, then our own works cannot cleanse them (if it seems circular, it is, because it is impossible for our works to cleanse our works). The sacrifice of our own works is insufficient.
Since our works are unclean, they have the exact opposite effect than the effect we desire. Instead of pleasing God, which would allow us into His presence, (in our way of thinking) they actually deeply offend God. Those works disgust Him. There is no way He will accept them.
So, if you are trying to compile enough good works to make up for your sins, forget it. If you wish to make sure your list of good works is longer than your list of bad works, you are in trouble. It will not happen. You are trying to put your good works in the Good Works Column in order to make that list longer that the one in the Bad Works Column. Since your works, good or bad, are as soiled menstrual cloths, and therefore bad in God's eyes, they are actually all going in the Bad Works Column, making it longer and longer. The point here is, you can never do enough good works to get into Heaven. Indeed without Christ you can do no good works. If all your works are as soiled menstrual cloths, the more you accumulate, the worse the stench gets in God's nostrils. If you are going to church occasionally and doing a good deed or two once in a while and hoping those things will get you into Heaven, you are out of luck. It will never happen.
Let us harp, for a moment, on the Easter "Christians". (I understand that Easter is a pagan word from Ishtar and that we should celebrate the resurrection of Jesus instead of Ishtar, but that is another subject for another study. This is for an example only.) In many, if not most local churches, Easter Sunday brings the biggest crowd of churchgoers. Many churches prepare for overflowing crowds at their facilities. We cannot actually know the hearts of those individuals who come to church once a year. Nevertheless, the odds are that many of them think that their one pilgrimage to church per year keeps God happy with them. It is reasonable to suspect that these folks do good deeds throughout the year hoping to add to their yearly good deed of going to church. Unfortunately, because those good deeds are as soiled menstrual cloths, they are really unclean and displeasing to God.
The truth of the matter is that the great majority of humans on this earth are involved in a quest to have more good works than bad so that when they die, they may eventually receive rest. In some religious beliefs it takes many lifetimes, or incarnations before folks can accumulate enough good works to be at rest. Many believe that in this lifetime, they must do enough good works to please God so that they can be at rest after the death of their bodies. In any case, the majority of humans on earth are trying to accumulate more good works than bad in hope of heaven. Sadly, there is no hope of heaven in our own works.
Remember that the woman who has finished seven days after her period must also present a sin offering. If you want to make your works clean, then a sin offering must be made. If you took a turtledove or a pigeon and slaughtered it, that would only provide temporary atonement under the old covenant. Under the new covenant, all you would do is to kill two birds. Nothing else would happen. However, God has provided a perfect sacrifice for us. His Son, Jesus Christ, was a perfect and sinless man who died in our place, which can take our sins away. When we believe on Him—that He died and rose from the grave three days later and is alive today—we are saved. His work was perfect while our works are filthy. Now, after He saves us, the works we do are no longer as filthy rags. They are then good works that earn us rewards.
Why is that so? It us because God credits the saved with His own righteousness. He credits His righteousness to the accounts of Christians. A Christian has no righteousness of His own; he has the righteousness of Christ. Because of the belief of Christians, God credits them with righteousness. It is just like Abraham. Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." Romans 4:3 "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." (See also Galatians 3:6 and James 2:23). Just as God imputed or credited His own righteousness to Abraham, He also imputes or credits it to us when we believe in Christ. Once God imputes His righteousness to us, then the works we do in that righteousness are good and righteous works. Before salvation, we do no righteous works; they are all unrighteous and unclean. After salvation, all of our good works are righteous and clean in God's sight.
http://www.bibleword.org/rags2.shtml#a
Or as Paul has said
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
HaHaHaHa...
Matthew 26:27-29 27And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you, 28for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."
Mark 14:23-25 23And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. 25Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."
Acts 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Romans 3:21-31 21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
Romans 5:9-10 9Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Ephesians 1:3-10 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Colossians 1:19-21 19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
Great article! That sure illustrates the futility of thinking that works is going to do anyone any good trying to gain salvation.
Are you an attorney, or do you just like watching TV programs? You are the one who stated the evidence "proved" your opinion, you stated the "probative" evidence was the IRS documents that list 501(3c) entities, you also admitted you had NOT done the work necessary to prove your contention.
One key element for the admission of evidence is whether it proves or helps prove a fact or issue. If so, the evidence is deemed probative. Probative evidence establishes or contributes to proof. (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/probative)
The burden of proof was YOURS since you submitted such as your convincing evidence of your statement. You did not prove your assertion and only "guessed", therefore it is your burden, not mine. I also gave you your own words admitting you did not examine the documents, stating "It would take years" to make an educated opinion of such. You make a fool of yourself by standing by a bogus number that you and everyone else should know it is. Here's a deal, you want to insist there are 30k different Protestant denominations, then I will assert there are 8000 different Catholic denominations. Is that okay with you, counselor?
It depends on the individuals' motivations. There are some that cannot understand. Here, there are many that will not understand. We see that in the alliance of people in entities that ordinarily hate each other, only to find that their mutual hatred of Catholicism overcomes their hatred of each other. And make no mistake - these folks don't - if it was not for the Catholic Church, they would not only have no purpose for being, they would completely lost and directionless. Now, they have an anchor. They may protest against it, but they rely on that anchor.
I haven't run across any that aren't.
Do you want to have a discussion of the scripture that the RCC uses to support the veneration of Mary and the bodily assumption of Mary? Shall we look at Revelation 12 which the RCC uses as a foundation for the belief about Mary?
That has no bearing on the validity of the illegitimate descendants of the institutions of the equally illegitimate Reformation.
I’m ready but was going to wait until a later time where it may be more appropriate.
Oh, goody. Everything Protestant is about the individual and its suitability to that individual. You keep proving my point.
You don’t believe what scripture says?
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal lifethat believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10: 27-30).
Romans 10:13. Let us also be secure in knowing that "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"
I believe what Scripture says. I don't believe what individual Protestant Popes say.
1 John is an exhortation to the believers, indeed it is a letter intended to bolster belief amongst Christians. It does not say anything about surety. It is about belief.
John 10 says that nobody can rid a true believer of salvation. Jesus never said that one cannot reject salvation - indeed, much of the Gospels is about rejecting Him and the consequences.
Romans is also an exhortation similar to 1 John. Yet we must set it side by side with Jesus telling us that not every who says Lord, Lord is saved. So therefore there is something more beneath the surface that so few Protestants can see, much less fathom.
Do you really need to use pejoratives? I’ve noticed you do that rather often. Is it because you are insecure in your positions and feel the need to attempt to demean the person you are speaking to? It doesn’t work. IMO it demeans you and the positions you take.
I shall take that into account.
>> Continue on with your fixation of menstrual blood.<<
Twice in one post! How juvenile.
Stay tuned. I didn't do it for your benefit.
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