I, John McDonnell, wrote: But I don't waste the days of my probation attacking Mormons, especially since I am convinced that the Book of Mormon itself is true.
Elsie quoted this statement of mine, and replied in these words:
Well Satan; it's not every day I get to reply directly to you; as it is usually one of your expendable minions that is sent into battle. You DO know your fate; don't you? You time is SHORT: is THAT why you are trying SO hard to steer SO many into YOUR hell? The place CREATED for the DEVIL and his ANGELS??
This takes "demonizing one's opponents" to a new level. What set her off must have been my phrase "the days of my probation", which, as anyone who has calmly read the Book of Mormon knows, is in full harmony with Book of Mormon teachings. My concordance shows 13 occurances of "probation" or "probationary" referring to human life on Earth. It simply means that humans are "tested" by God, which is a solid biblical concept. God tests, Satan tempts. Those who are wise pass God's tests, while not yielding to Satan's tempts away from what is pleasing to God. Within the grace of redemption, our temporal life experiences are a preparation for eternal life experiences, when we will know as we are known.
I don't think that Elsie's reacting to a statement of mine by calling me Satan is the kind of response that is pleasing to God. That it went unchallenged by the many anti-Mormons here says something about them as well. One should be careful that one's zeal for "defending the faith" does not descend into hateful name-calling that is lacking in the love for all people that true Christianity is famous for.
I am still waiting for a response to what Elsie wrote about me from someone other than Elsie. Do you, Colofornian, believe that what she wrote about me is pleasing to God?
Were John LDS, I'd say we have a case of "PMS" here. But since we are dealing with a restorationist, it appears that the ailment has mutated to some degree.
It appears that you may be trying to highjack the thread away from the original article with repeated comments about Elsie.
She's a big girl and can speak for herself, BTW
And harsh terms are not unusual on "open" RF threads, e.g. cult, Satanic, apostate, anathema, heretic. Those terms are sometimes used in the posters' holy writings.
For instance, it is not unusual for a poster to use the Biblical quote "Get thee behind me, Satan" in a town square format when speaking of the other poster's beliefs.
That said, such terms should not be used in speaking of another poster, personally. For instance, "That is heresy" is not making it personal whereas "You are a heretic" is making it personal.
Do not make the thread "about" individual Freepers, that is also a form of "making it personal."
Discuss the issues all you want but do not make it personal.
satan lied to Eve, “you to can be god”
satan lied to Joseph Smith, “you to can be god”
Joseph Smith lied to everyone, “you to can be god”
place marker
Galatians 5:12
Yeah... Sure....
Matthew 15:16
"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
Matthew 231. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
4. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5. "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6. they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
7. they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
8. "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you will be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
14. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18. You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19. You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20. Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30. And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34. Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38. Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
Mark 7:26-27
26. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27. "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
And St. Paul chimes in...
Galatians 5:12
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
What set her off must have been my phrase “the days of my probation”, which, as anyone who has calmly read the Book of Mormon knows, is in full harmony with Book of Mormon teachings.\
- - - - -
But it isn’t in harmony with the Bible.
#1, I try to operate by a standard of how I would receive, ignore, or offer alternative considerations were somebody to label me a certain tag...say by either the label "Satan" -- or the phrase "anti-Mormon" that you've twice used on this thread (#139, #162) & so many others cavalier use. "Anti-Mormon" isn't exactly an endearing term, either, John. Do we expect all Mormons to rush in & chastise you for using that term vs. us? (Not on your life).
Yet, I love my Lds relatives & friends. Enough to love them w/the truth. I am anti-ism; but not against the Mormon person -- just like I am anti-homosexuality; but not against the homosexual person. Are you consistent, John? Are you & EVERYBODY who opposes homosexuality an 'anti-homosexual?' If you don't think so, then be consistent & stop using the "anti" terms.
Back to that standard I mentioned, yes…if Elsie doesn’t like to be labeled as “Satan,” I suppose consistency would be in order. Why don’t you ask Elsie if he meant it in the same way Jesus addressed Peter. Peter wasn’t “Satan,” yet Jesus spoke to the one speaking thru him, “Get thee behind me, Satan.” (Or do you wish to give a kneejerk reaction & automatically accuse Jesus of “demonizing” Peter, too?)
Obviously, demons really produce doctrines. To the extent that the apostle Paul wrote Timothy about the ”doctrines of demons.” (Have you yet asked Elsie to qualify what he meant; was he accusing you of being a mouthpiece for demonic doctrines?)
I don't think that Elsie's reacting to a statement of mine by calling me Satan is the kind of response that is pleasing to God. That it went unchallenged...This takes "demonizing one's opponents" to a new level. (JM, #139)
Oh, I think that the MORMONs have that locked up with a lifetime award! (Elsie, #143)
Such vast inconsistencies, John.
Elsie references the devil in a July 2011 post aimed @ you. Yet, what? You’ve never criticized Joseph Smith, his jail-bud early Lds apostle (turned later Lds “Prophet”) John Taylor, or the Book of Mormon and long-time Lds church interpretation of 1 Nephi 14:9-17 for labeling Christians as being of the devil?
Where’s your provocation consistency, John?
Do these following quotes provoke you – as they do us?
* "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the DEVIL, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
* John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense..the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167).
1 Nephi 14:9-10 says there are only two churches: The church of the Lamb & the Church of the Devil. In the opinion of Mormon leaders, the church of the devil ("abominable church...whose foundation is the devil"-- 1 Nephi 14:9).
* ”And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the CHURCH OF THE DEVIL; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.” (1 Nephi 14:10-11)
* ”And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the DEVIL, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.” (1 Nephi 14:17)
Lds leaders claim that this devil’s church of 1 Nephi 14 is the great non-Mormon church that branched out into Protestantism.
They’ve slandered us worldwide, John. For these past 180 years.
Elsie's right at least on one thing here: Smith & his disciples have a locked-up lifetime award on devilish accusations of the Christian church...with nary a "peep" of protest from most contemporary restorationists, I might add.