Posted on 07/15/2011 5:01:33 AM PDT by tcg
....some of my colleagues in the world of Catholic media, journalism and the Press have attributed the positions of this Church and Bachmanns past membership to just "being a Protestant." As someone who has worked ecumenically for decades I reject that dismissal. The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod does not represent many Protestants. It is an Anti-Catholic body.
....I have worked with, prayed with and collaborated with MANY Protestant Christians, for over three decades, who would NEVER call the successor of Peter the Antichrist. The colleagues to which I refer go further, they seemingly accept the notion that if Protestant Christians felt otherwise they would no longer be Protestant. That is not only overly simplistic, it fails to recognize the substantial issues which divide the broken Body of Christ.
....Some of the other articles I have read ...attempt to dismiss it by pointing to the authors purported political leanings. So, let me speak to that for a moment. I have political leanings. I like Michele Bachmann's positions on the issues which matter most to this Catholic voter. She is pro-Life and defends marriage and the family and society founded upon it.
I appreciate her pledge to reign in the ever expanding size of the Federal government, which I fear threatens the principle of subsidiarity. Finally, I had been impressed with her intelligence, her oratorical skills, her background and her presence. All of this made her my second favorite possible candidate, until now. My first choice is obvious to anyone who reads my ongoing political commentary.
However, her political and policy positions were not the point of Joshua Green's article and focusing upon them may be a form of deflection. Green raised the issue of Michele Bachmann's long standing identification with a Church body which is clearly Anti-Catholic....
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...
Absolutely. She will be attacked from every possible angle including religion.
I think of the idiotic remark by some news person a couple of weeks ago. Palin had used the term “110%”. She was criticized for “not knowing” that 100% was the highest possible percentage!!!
That kind of attack on her has put me in a very foul mood.
I agree with you 100%. Except insofar as this is not an attack by the left. This came from Deacon Fournier.
I think our Protestant friends here deserve to hear us Catholics say publicly why we think this argument is bunk.
My 3 brothers-in-law who are ministers didn’t even know about this statement until they were well into seminary.
Someone had to go really digging into the archives of the website to even come up with it.
And of course, it affects nothing policy related. FWIW she has asked to have her membership ‘released’ she has not left the church body. She is still has fellowship with the WELS and is still eligile for communion.
“.. It may also be pointed out that the Catholic church’s official teaching is that anyone not a Catholic will also be going to hell...”
Bullshit, Granny....
My Lutheran dad voted for your Catholic Kennedy.
And if I used your logic I would never vote for a Catholic since the Roman church is Anti-Protestant.
I’ve said before I will support and vote for Bachmann if she is our nominee. But the comments above, show why this IS a legitimate concern, when the Catholic church is already the prime target for persecution by liberals.
(especially gays, from NY to CA)
1) “... Mary worship, “celebate” priests, etc., then I’m anti-catholic as well.”
Dr. Thorne should look up Minister Warren, and “Chrislam” here.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/search?m=all;o=time;q=quick;s=chrislam
2) “It may also be pointed out that the Catholic church’s official teaching is that anyone not a Catholic will also be going to hell”
///
that is absolutely categorically a lie.
one of many, that hardcore anti-catholic christians repeat.
the Pope has affirmed that we will see Protestant brothers in Heaven.
any Protestant who calls me brother, i join in saying “Jesus is Lord”.
but, MANY protestants have attacked me and my child, and told us we are going to Hell.
a Baptist school, is the only non-public school i can afford.
my child has come home in tears more than once, because of the hatred of Catholics expressed there.
(they don’t know my child is Catholic.)
i asked my child, and was told that they NEVER condemn or criticise Islam, which IS the religion of Satan himself.
i don’t personally know ANY Catholic who hates Baptists.
NOT ONE !
...my child took first communion at the Papal Mass. it was a perfect day.
my happy child told me they “felt different”. i knew then, my child was safe with Jesus, forever.
...until we left the stadium. and “christians” with BULLHORNS and large signs were saying all Catholics go to Hell, and the Pope is the anti-Christ.
HOW would you like to explain that, to YOUR child ?!?
...and i am honored to know many Protestants and Baptists, who are BETTER Christians than me.
but, i do not include Luther in that.
(and remember, Luther WAS a Catholic Priest! He accepted ALL the teachings, and promised that to God.
And when he wrote his 95 complaints, he did NOT leave the Church. He only did that later, out of pride.
and he also REMOVED entire books from the Bible.
...doesn’t the Bible condemn any who removed a single line?)
if you read Luther’s OWN words, he is a hater of Jews beyond compare. a hater of science. and quotes from him about women, are beyond insulting, compared to what the Bible teachings about wives and women in Ephesians, Corinthians, and Proverbs 31.
http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/04/martin-luther-quotes.php
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/luther.htm
Most Baptists I know, respect Jews and Israel.
but if one like Luther, says their houses should be burned, etc., then yes, i DO call them an enemy of the Church of Jesus.
and we DO need more Christian unity. which is why i respect ANY Christian, from any church, who doesn’t tell my child they are going to Hell, for being Catholic.
I am a member of the WELS church. My husband has been a member since birth, we have 3 ministers in our immediate family. In my 30 years of membership, I have never heard this mentioned. In his 55 years of membership, my husband has never heard it mentioned. Three ministers have never mentioned and did not even know about the statement until they were in seminary.--> folks, fellow freepers, this is an attempt to divide us.
Fellow Catholics, Michele has said she disagrees with this statement, members of the WELS Church themselves say this is not even mentioned. This should be ignored by us
Catholic-hates who want to post their anti-Catholic barbs --> CONGRATULATIONS, you are working for the left now, each attack you make will only help the author of this hit-piece in his ploy to divide conservatives.
Wonder how many pro choice candidates this political leaning author has voted for? Likely a social justice catholic feigning outrage.
Pray for America
Well, of course, there always the arguments that 'you gotta be Catholic' or 'you gotta be born again' to get into heaven. The WELS teachings are that the WELS churches are not the only saving church. As it is, I respect ANYONE of faith. It is very difficult in this world to stay in Christ.
” Extraordinary Magisterium -—EX CATHEDRA “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.) “
Your mistake here is to assume that “one universal Church” is identical in boundaries with the external boundaries of the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church’s boundary is created by “communion with the Bishop of Rome.” Anyone in communion with a bishop who is in communion with the bishop of Rome is a “member” of that visible, historically-bounded church.
But “universal Church” in Lateran IV does not refer exclusively to those visible boundaries. That’s the point of Dominus Iesus, Lumen gentiusm etc. John Paul explicitly addressed this in his book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope.
Anyone who is saved who is outside the visible boundaries (and there well be many, as well as many who are within the visible boundaries who will go to hell) is saved through Christ through Christ’s one Church. It’s mysterious invisible boundary is not identical with it’s visible boundary. But anyone who has come to see that the visible boundaried-Catholic Church is where the fullness subsists, has to enter the visible boundaries, or be damned.
But most non-Catholics don’t believe the fullness of the Church exists in the Catholic Church, so they aren’t rejecting something deliberately and knowingly.
You also quoted the Council of Florence:
“No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”
“remain within”—that means someone who was within but left. If he does so knowing that he is leaving the true Church, he’s in big trouble.
But 99.9999999999 percent of all non-Catholics never were within that bosom and did not leave it knowingly and deliberately.
They might still go to hell, but not because they aren’t Catholics but because they knowingly lied, cheated, murdered, manipulated. . . . whatever. Just as Catholics within that bosom who lie, cheat, manipulate, murder, etc. will go to hell.
The Central Anchor of the Church for 2000 years has always been Jesus Christ, our Lord, God and Savior
Oddly enough, evangelicals would probably tend to agree with the closing statement in this bull, with some stipulations as to meanings and means. They would say that no amount of personal works will get you to heaven, no matter how noble the claimed cause. They would say you become embraced in the universal church by Jesus Christ by placing saving faith in Jesus Christ, and that is your platform to heaven. They would say that only there can your works earn you any kind of corresponding heavenly reward.
This won’t be the first time Deacon Fournier has been wrong.
I’m just sick that the left gets so many freepers falling for its divide and conquer tricks. Great job, IbJensen, Dr. Thorne.
Deacon Fournier leans left. He’s not hard-left. He’s one of the “third-way” types who likes to shout “pox on both your houses” and think he’s above the fray.
He has had some good things to say in the past, is pro-life etc. But he’s wrong about Bachmann and he’s been wrong about politics in many ways.
Nothing in the excerpted part of the article shows any proof of Bachmann’s church being anti-Catholoic. It makes a reference to somone at some point calling a Pope the antichrist, but it doesnt say who said it or when.
This is pure divide and conquer.
I’m in no way a backer of Michele Bachmann for president and I am seriously disillusioned with her since she jumped in to the race.
But this is pathetic. She should no more be held to her old (or current) church’s beliefs on Catholicism than any Catholic candidates should be held to their church’s anti-protestantism.
LOL, oh my. Wow. I just don't know where to start. Can you point to one scripture which backs up your assertion here or in fact most of your rambling treatise. I think Brother you need to understand the over arching theme of the New Testament , it's roots back to Genesis and how the WHOLE , I stress WHOLE on many different levels, Jesus came for YOU , died on the cross as a subsitutional sacrifice for YOUR sins. You my Brother cannot goto Hell or Heaven based on joining any one religion and following is doctrines. It's all about BELIEF in Jesus Christ, that he was the Son of the Living God, and he loved you so much and wanted to be one with you again, that he died for your sins. There is NOTHING you can do or not do to earn his favor, NOTHING. This includes any vociferous defense of any one religion or doctrine. God is not mad at you Brother anymore, he wants you to invite him into your heart, to allow him to change your nature, to have fellowship with him, to wrap his arms around you and love on you. Your post was hateful, angry and sounded like something a Sadducee might have said in 33 A.D. to one of the Apostles.
is barry obama on permanent waiver for belonging to an anti-Jewish, anti-white church?
Can you please stop the Roman Catholic bashing? Seriously. I am a faithful and conservative Roman Catholic and do not attack anybody’s religion. So I ask you to tone it down.
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