Posted on 07/14/2011 2:54:04 PM PDT by Colofornian
ROGERS, Ark. -- For more than 150 years, an important piece of Arkansas and American history has been relegated to obscurity.
In early 1857, a wagon train left Northwest Arkansas and headed west, bound for California.
The Francher-Baker train was made up of 14 large Arkansas families, about 800 cattle and around 30 wagons.
"They were en route to California for a better life and little did they know that Brigham Young had declared war on the United States two weeks before they entered the Salt Lake Valley," said Phil Bolinger, with the Mountain Meadows Monument Foundation.
So without knowing tensions were running high between the U.S. government and Brigham Young, the leader of the Chuch of Latter-Day Saints (also known as the Mormon Church), the families decided to camp in southwest Utah, in a place called Mountain Meadows.
For most of the families, it would be their final resting place.
"They were attacked by a few indians, but mainly Mormon militia men," Bolinger said.
"Under one order -- the order was 'do your duty' -- each man killed his man, in other words, point-blank, execution-style murder. And then the women and children weren't so lucky. They were mainly bludgeoned to death with rocks or gun stocks," Bolinger said.
On September 11, 1857, 121 men, women and children were murdered. Only 17 small children, all under the age of 6, were spared. Two years later, the orphans were reunited with relatives in Arkansas.
"Everyone who lived in Northwest Arkansas at that time, had some blood relatives that were members of this wagon train," said Scott Fancher, a descendant who has 27 relatives who died that day.
For years the Mormon church denied allegations of involvement and blamed local Native Americans for the slaughter.
Descedents of the victims have always wanted the church to own up and have wanted to get federal protection for the massacre site.
In the last 10 years, there has been movies and media coverage and trips to washington to fight for the site of the massacre to become a national historic landmark, and on July 2, it did.
"Finally we have some serious, bonafied, high order federal protection for the site to protect it from development or encroachment. We also have the recognition of the site as a nationally significant historic site," Fancher said.
Francher and Bolinger say the massacre was America's first 9/11.
"Interestingly enough, it was also an act of religious extremism, and that's another sort of eerie parallel between that and are more recent 9/11. But in both cases, religious extremists did basically horrible things to basically innocent people," Fancher said.
But in this case, more than a hundred years later, both sides have been able to reconcile.
"We're 150 years-plus into this story, and it's taken that long for the players to kind of meet in the middle and agree to be civil and both agree we won't get everything that we want but we get something better for everyone that's involved," Fancher said.
The national landmark dedication ceremony will be held in Utah at the site of the Mountain Meadows massacre on September 11.
So tell us, bvw, since you keep stretching the definitional boundaries just from having to admit the obvious that you didn't read the original parameters, which of these sides were the terrorists?
I think 'Zilla, Reaganaut & myself would like to know why you've referenced both the British and Mexican governments as "terrorists"?
So that you don't keep stretching things over & over & over again to keep from attempting not to be off-base...please select a terrorist attack that occurred...
On Sept. 11...
...1856 or before...
...on American soil...
...carried out upon innocent lives -- including children...
...and, again, by a group of people terrorizing a group of non-military people.
Got that straight now?
My direct Mormon ancestors were at times in Utah during the Mormon cover-up years of the MMM. I have had Lds relatives who have settled in the region where the MMM occurred -- and lived alongside descendents of the MMM mass murderers.
"Grudge"? You might say some victims' family members could have an understanding "grudge" for what occurred in 1857, what what about people like Reaganaut and me?
Reaganaut, being an ex-Mo, had one-time spiritual "forefathers" involved in both the crimes & massive cover-up. Colorcountry, also an ex-Mo, has a family lineage directly linked to one of the perpetrators.
I'd say we're a whole lot closer to the camp of the ones who sincerely regret and apologize for the actions of the perpetrators and would say to the ancestors of the Fancher and Baker parties: "We are so heartily sorry that your ancestors thought the Utah territorial Mormons were hospitable...and how Tulare County -- just a hop, skip & jump from JimRob's Fresno County -- would be such a distinct place today had the Fanchers been allowed to continue their lives and settle there."
'Tis time for our Mormon neighbors, a few of whom have tucked away after-the-fact evidence of the crimes written in journals by the perpetrators' families, come clean and spill all they know.
Yes, it’s true I included three military events, and one terrorist attack. Yet, terror was and is a way of fighting wars. The Cheyennes were at war with settlers. The Mormons of that time were also, like the Cheyennes, in a war for what they viewed as their own survival. It’s nice to think, many years since, that we can recant some of bitterest wine of human history, of the grapes of wrath that grow during war. But it’s delusional.
Not all wounds heal without scars, but damn those who’d tear open the scar for a grudge, to make the wound afresh.
There are surely terror events found on every day of a year’s calender. That’s a sad thing, but also it is human. It is something, as a fellow human, to be humbled by. Where’s the humility in those here digging up the dead to raise a stench?
By the intensity of response to my postings, I do not see any.
Oh really? So all the mormons were going to be killed off by the US army at the time. Please - read up on your history a little better.
BTW - IF (and a BIG IF) it was 'war', then this is further an example of a war crime.
Are you as generous to the moslems who flew the planes into the WTC, Pentagon and Pennsylvania?
Facts are bvw, the existance of mormons was not threatened by the US Army and DEFINITELY not by one of many bands of settlers passing through to the west.
That is the history, according to the State of Utah's history of the Utah War.
In a territory that is able to muster a force even larger than that (upwards of over 6000). Oh Please. Furthermore- read your history. The US Army was given orders to shoot only in defense.
The US military was given a limited scope of operation - restore federal authority over the territory and reinstate judges and territorial Governor. Young whipped up a bunch of hooey, but the forces did exactly what was ordered. No massacres of mormons, no burning down of mormon homes and businesses. Only the reestablishement of federal control of a US territory that Young had attempted to turn into a theocracy, in open rebellion against the federal gov't, and who ran federal judges out of the territory and replaced them with his own people.
Again, absolutely NONE of this justified the deliberate ambush and cold blooded murder of unarmed men, women and older children. That is not an act of war - it was flat out cold blooded murder and terrorism.
Oh Please I did read my history, I just linked to an adequate account of the situation. Your "oh please" is a tell-tale. You only want to know that which supports that grudge or whatever other animus is driving you in blinders like some malevolent jockey.
Yep, one page from the internet. “Adequate” only for the very simple minded. Very good, take you a couple hours to read? If you have a month, try bancroft’s history of utah.
No, just like many others seeking to justify the cold blooded murder of innocent and unarmed men, women and older children by mormons. Not surprising either - lds inc. has been working to keep the details and involvement under wraps for the past 150+ years as well.
You don’t even go to MMM specific sources of information - but rely upon a generic ‘history’ of historical interpretation to justify the atrocity.
Do you hold the same feelings for the moslems who killed thousands on 9/11 as well?
Malevolent? LOL, malevolent is Brigham Young and his posse tearing down the cross and scattering the rock cairn erected to memoralize those murdered there. Malevolent is the lds church which refuses the families request to fully restore to the cairn the cross.
But that seems alright to you.
Exactly when did Brigham Young die? Was it last week? Or maybe he’s still alive?
Judging by the passion of hornets stirred up in the emotions of your posts, looks like he and his posse could show up anyplace, anytime like some Lord of the Rings Nazgûl brought to life.
Whats the matter bvw - unable to defend your position on the basis of the facts? Young was their 'prophet', his words were the words from God (alledgly). From open rebellion to the US Gov't, willful breaking of the law (though they claimed to sustain all laws), to oaths of vengenance against the US Gov't (through 1927). I could go on - racism till 1978, etc, but this is the mormon heritage, the teaching of the living prophet.
The mormon church has never repudiated young for his actions - and are therefore complacent in their actions even today. Even named a university after him. How nice.
No judging from the bleats here trying to justify MMM it seems the danites have gone back out to silence the truth of mormon heritage.
Nah...
Just plain ol' math.
1.096 and 10.96
if ya wanna get a little MORE precise: 10.951 in the 4000 school
Surely a reference or two can be found amoung these:
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (, p.270).Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (, p. 119).Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" ( 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" ( 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" ( 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" ( 10:230).Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (, p. 255).Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (, 18:172).President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (, 10:127).James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (, p.182).President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (, vol. 3, p.282).More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (, p.316).President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (, vol. 2, p.196).
Oh yea, that’s what mormons call Catholics. Thanks for reminding me.
I have visited Fort Wallace, as my wife’s first husband (he died) was a Wallace.
Very interesting place.
Still fairly remote and just a little bit of blurring of the eyes will make the modern items disappear and you are dancing with wolves again.
MORMONism is a heresy - no 'grudge' involved.
Damn!
We'd best roll over and expose our bellies like a timorous pup!
~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President
Is BrighamYoung lying?
"For unbelievers we will quote from the Scriptures - "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." Again - "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God."
I will now give my scripture - "Whosoever confesseth that Joseph Smith was sent of God to reveal the holy Gospel to the children of men, and lay the foundation for gathering Israel, and building up the kingdom of God on the earth, that spirit is of God; and every spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist.......
- BrighamYoung
Here's some MORE for MORMON's...
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned; and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
- JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, "it is an immaterial substance!" What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.
I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.
- JoD 1:50-51 (April 9, 1852)
The rank, rabid abolitionists, whom I call black-hearted Republicans, have set the whole national fabric on fire. Do you know this, Democrats? They have kindled the fire that is raging now from the north to the south, and from the south to the north. I am no abolitionist, neither am I a proslavery man; I hate some of their principles and especially some of their conduct, as I do the gates of hell. The Southerners make the negroes, and the Northerners worship them; this is all the difference between slaveholders. and abolitionists. I would like the President of the United States and all the world to hear this.
Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.
- JoD: vol.10 p. 110: (March 8, 1863)
It looks like BrighamYoung was pretty good at bashings and 'stirring up emotions'.
I’m impressed. The “IQ test” lead-in was a stunner. That is, meant to deflect all but the fearless and honestly self-confident.
Solomon and Aristotle (either Aritotle or Archimedes, I forget which) both advised using the appropriate level of precision. In this example 1 and 10 would be fine. I remember upsetting a 9th grade pre-algebra class when I told them PI equals 10. That’s true when when the problem at hand can be answered using that precision. I pointed out that PI is not equal exactly to any number or fraction we can write, and any number used to represent PI is only an approximation.
The Law of Inspired Laziness says to always use the most coarse approximation that produces an acceptably useful answer to the problem at hand.
Yeah, but are you supposed to pee yourself as well?
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