[Cronos]

Wow -- so the reformatters created the USA?

Despite the separation of 2 centuries or more between the events?

That's utterly incorrect

For the first hand, both the English and the Revolutionaries were pretty much of the same religion

Secondly, the puritans were hardly lovers of liberty -- when they could establish their taliban states they did

thirdly, evidently you may not have heard that Catholics played a disproportionate role in the American Revolution contrary to their numbers (1.6% of the colonies' population)

1. There were no Baptists among the Founding Fathers --> there were
   1. Church of England/Episcopalian: 28
   2. Presbyterian: 8
   3. Congregationalists: 8
   4. Lutherans: 2
   5. Dutch Reformed: 2
   6. Methodists: 2
   7. Catholics: 3 (C. Caroll, D. Caroll & Fitzsimons)
   8. Deists: 7 (including Thomas Jefferson

2. Evidently you never heard that Maryland was founded for providing religious toleration of England's persecuted Roman Catholics?

3. Evidently you never knew that John Caroll had initially been a priest before devoting himself to the Revolution?

4. Evidently you never heard of Fr. Pierre Gibault who pledged the support of the region of S-W Indiana to the USA (to Col. George Rogers Clark)?

5. Evidently you never heard of the accomplishments of John Barry, a native Irishman who captained a number of ships during the war. Barry was the first to capture a British war vessel on the high seas; he also was wounded in a sea batter yet captured two British ships and fought the last battle on the seas of the Revolutionary war. He was George Washington's choice for commander of the US navy -- he was issued Commission Number 1 by Washintong and was not only the first American commissioned naval officer but also it's first flag officer

6. Evidently you've never heard of the Marquis de Lafayette, a Catholic or the Polish captain Tadeusz Kosciuszko and both were key in the Revolutionary War?
7. Evidently you never heard of Casimir Pułaski, a Pole who led Washington's cavalry and died in the battle for Savannah

8. Evidently you never heard of the Catholic Philadelphia merchant Stephen Moylan who became Quatermaster General of the Continental Army?

9. John Caroll says this about Catholic participation in the Revolutionary war (remember the country was only 1.6% Catholic):"Their blood flowed as freely, in proportion to their numbers, to cement the fabric of independence as that of their fellow citizens. They concurred with perhaps greater unanimity than any other body of men in recommending and promoting from whose influence America anticipates all the blessings of justice, peace, plenty, good orders, and civil and religious liberty"

The religious freedom fought for was also religious freedom for Catholics from Protestant England, hence the Catholic volunteers and support from Catholic Irishmen, Frenchmen and Poles.

It is wrong to claim that this was just the Calvinists who liberated our country.

[BlueDragon]

It is wrong to claim that this was just the Calvinists who liberated our country.

I didn't say that. You're twisting my words. Is it deliberate?

What I did say is that the idea of freedom did not arise from papal sources! No it's your turn. Name that pope! or shut up!

Wow -- so the reformatters created the USA? Despite the separation of 2 centuries or more between the events? That's utterly incorrect

You're trying to make people think the Reformation began and ended with Calvin? How convenient. Then all one needs to do is hold up Calvin like some sort of pinata and bash away. But that's typical of the Catholic historical distortions and gyrations displayed on this forum--- to cover up for the former crimes and ungodliness of prior popes.

Freedom, including freedom of religious expression --- not exactly a "Roman Catholic" idea (as can be found ample evidence of in the preceding centuries, in Europe, for papal authorities fought the very idea tooth & nail) although many Catholics in America took a shine to the notion, particularly since at the time they were decidedly in minority.

If not for the Reformation, there would doubtfully been the cultural climate in which the idea would have even been discussed. It surely didn't flow from 1400's-1700's Rome, as I have clearly stated before. If you are aiming to refute my words, refute those. NAME THAT POPE!

[Salvation]

Excellent factual post! Thanks!