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CALVINISM IN AMERICA [Happy "Presbyterian Rebellion" Day, everybody!]
Reformed Theology.org ^ | Loraine Boettner

Posted on 07/04/2011 8:49:43 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

When we come to study the influence of Calvinism as a political force in the history of the United States we come to one of the brightest pages of all Calvinistic history. Calvinism came to America in the Mayflower, and Bancroft, the greatest of American historians, pronounces the Pilgrim Fathers "Calvinists in their faith according to the straightest system."1 John Endicott, the first governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony; John Winthrop, the second governor of that Colony; Thomas Hooker, the founder of Connecticut; John Davenport, the founder of the New Haven Colony; and Roger Williams, the founder of the Rhode Island Colony, were all Calvinists. William Penn was a disciple of the Huguenots. It is estimated that of the 3,000,000 Americans at the time of the American Revolution, 900,000 were of Scotch or Scotch-Irish origin, 600,000 were Puritan English, and 400,000 were German or Dutch Reformed. In addition to this the Episcopalians had a Calvinistic confession in their Thirty-nine Articles; and many French Huguenots also had come to this western world. Thus we see that about two-thirds of the colonial population had been trained in the school of Calvin. Never in the world's history had a nation been founded by such people as these. Furthermore these people came to America not primarily for commercial gain or advantage, but because of deep religious convictions. It seems that the religious persecutions in various European countries had been providentially used to select out the most progressive and enlightened people for the colonization of America. At any rate it is quite generally admitted that the English, Scotch, Germans, and Dutch have been the most masterful people of Europe. Let it be especially remembered that the Puritans, who formed the great bulk of the settlers in New England, brought with them a Calvinistic Protestantism, that they were truly devoted to the doctrines of the great Reformers, that they had an aversion for formalism and oppression whether in the Church or in the State, and that in New England Calvinism remained the ruling theology throughout the entire Colonial period.

With this background we shall not be surprised to find that the Presbyterians took a very prominent part in the American Revolution. Our own historian Bancroft says: "The Revolution of 1776, so far as it was affected by religion, was a Presbyterian measure. It was the natural outgrowth of the principles which the Presbyterianism of the Old World planted in her sons, the English Puritans, the Scotch Covenanters, the French Huguenots, the Dutch Calvinists, and the Presbyterians of Ulster." So intense, universal, and aggressive were the Presbyterians in their zeal for liberty that the war was spoken of in England as "The Presbyterian Rebellion." An ardent colonial supporter of King George III wrote home: "I fix all the blame for these extraordinary proceedings upon the Presbyterians. They have been the chief and principal instruments in all these flaming measures. They always do and ever will act against government from that restless and turbulent anti-monarchial spirit which has always distinguished them everywhere."2 When the news of "these extraordinary proceedings" reached England, Prime Minister Horace Walpole said in Parliament, "Cousin America has run off with a Presbyterian parson" (John Witherspoon, president of Princeton, signer of Declaration of Independence).

History is eloquent in declaring that American democracy was born of Christianity and that that Christianity was Calvinism. The great Revolutionary conflict which resulted in the formation of the American nation, was carried out mainly by Calvinists, many of whom had been trained in the rigidly Presbyterian College at Princeton, and this nation is their gift to all liberty loving people.

J. R. Sizoo tells us: "When Cornwallis was driven back to ultimate retreat and surrender at Yorktown, all of the colonels of the Colonial Army but one were Presbyterian elders. More than one-half of all the soldiers and officers of the American Army during the Revolution were Presbyterians."3

The testimony of Emilio Castelar, the famous Spanish statesman, orator and scholar, is interesting and valuable. Castelar had been professor of Philosophy in the University of Madrid before he entered politics, and he was made president of the republic which was set up by the Liberals in 1873. As a Roman Catholic he hated Calvin and Calvinism. Says he: "It was necessary for the republican movement that there should come a morality more austere than Luther's, the morality of Calvin, and a Church more democratic than the German, the Church of Geneva. The Anglo-Saxon democracy has for its lineage a book of a primitive society — the Bible. It is the product of a severe theology learned by the few Christian fugitives in the gloomy cities of Holland and Switzerland, where the morose shade of Calvin still wanders . . . And it remains serenely in its grandeur, forming the most dignified, most moral and most enlightened portion of the human race."4

Says Motley: "In England the seeds of liberty, wrapped up in Calvinism and hoarded through many trying years, were at last destined to float over land and sea, and to bear the largest harvests of temperate freedom for great commonwealths that were still unborn.5 "The Calvinists founded the commonwealths of England, of Holland, and America." And again, "To Calvinists more than to any other class of men, the political liberties of England, Holland and America are due."6

The testimony of another famous historian, the Frenchman Taine, who himself held no religious faith, is worthy of consideration. Concerning the Calvinists he said: "These men are the true heroes of England. They founded England, in spite of the corruption of the Stuarts, by the exercise of duty, by the practice of justice, by obstinate toil, by vindication of right, by resistance to oppression, by the conquest of liberty, by the repression of vice. They founded Scotland; they founded the United States; at this day they are, by their descendants, founding Australia and colonizing the world."7

In his book, "The Creed of Presbyterians," E. W. Smith asks concerning the American colonists, "Where learned they those immortal principles of the rights of man, of human liberty, equality and self-government, on which they based their Republic, and which form today the distinctive glory of our American civilization ? In the school of Calvin they learned them. There the modern world learned them. So history teaches," (p. 121).

We shall now pass on to consider the influence which the Presbyterian Church as a Church exerted in the formation of the Republic. "The Presbyterian Church," said Dr. W. H. Roberts in an address before the General Assembly, "was for three-quarters of a century the sole representative upon this continent of republican government as now organized in the nation." And then he continues: "From 1706 to the opening of the revolutionary struggle the only body in existence which stood for our present national political organization was the General Synod of the American Presbyterian Church. It alone among ecclesiastical and political colonial organizations exercised authority, derived from the colonists themselves, over bodies of Americans scattered through all the colonies from New England to Georgia. The colonies in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, it is to be remembered, while all dependent upon Great Britain, were independent of each other. Such a body as the Continental Congress did not exist until 1774. The religious condition of the country was similar to the political. The Congregational Churches of New England had no connection with each other, and had no power apart from the civil government. The Episcopal Church was without organization in the colonies, was dependent for support and a ministry on the Established Church of England, and was filled with an intense loyalty to the British monarchy. The Reformed Dutch Church did not become an efficient and independent organization until 1771, and the German Reformed Church did not attain to that condition until 1793. The Baptist Churches were separate organizations, the Methodists were practically unknown, and the Quakers were non-combatants."

Delegates met every year in the General Synod, and as Dr. Roberts tells us, the Church became "a bond of union and correspondence between large elements in the population of the divided colonies." "Is it any wonder," he continues, "that under its fostering influence the sentiments of true liberty, as well as the tenets of a sound gospel, were preached throughout the territory from Long Island to South Carolina, and that above all a feeling of unity between the Colonies began slowly but surely to assert itself? Too much emphasis cannot be laid, in connection with the origin of the nation, upon the influence of that ecclesiastical republic, which from 1706 to 1774 was the only representative on this continent of fully developed federal republican institutions. The United States of America owes much to that oldest of American Republics, the Presbyterian Church."8

It is, of course, not claimed that the Presbyterian Church was the only source from which sprang the principles upon which this republic is founded, but it is claimed that the principles found in the Westminster Standards were the chief basis for the republic, and that "The Presbyterian Church taught, practiced, and maintained in fulness, first in this land that form of government in accordance with which the Republic has been organized." (Roberts).

The opening of the Revolutionary struggle found the Presbyterian ministers and churches lined up solidly on the side of the colonists, and Bancroft accredits them with having made the first bold move toward independence.9 The synod which assembled in Philadelphia in 1775 was the first religious body to declare openly and publicly for a separation from England. It urged the people under its jurisdiction to leave nothing undone that would promote the end in view, and called upon them to pray for the Congress which was then in session.

The Episcopalian Church was then still united with the Church of England, and it opposed the Revolution. A considerable number of individuals within that Church, however, labored earnestly for independence and gave of their wealth and influence to secure it. It is to be remembered also that the Commander-in-Chief of the American armies, "the father of our country," was a member of her household. Washington himself attended, and ordered all of his men to attend the services of his chaplains, who were clergymen from the various churches. He gave forty thousand dollars to establish a Presbyterian College in his native state, which took his name in honor of the gift and became Washington College.

N. S. McFetridge has thrown light upon another major development of the Revolutionary period. For the sake of accuracy and completeness we shall take the privilege of quoting him rather extensively. "Another important factor in the independent movement," says he, "was what is known as the 'Mecklenburg Declaration,' proclaimed by the Scotch-Irish Presbyterians of North Carolina, May 20, 1775, more than a year before the Declaration (of Independence) of Congress. It was the fresh, hearty greeting of the Scotch-Irish to their struggling brethren in the North, and their bold challenge to the power of England. They had been keenly watching the progress of the contest between the colonies and the Crown, and when they heard of the address presented by the Congress to the King, declaring the colonies in actual rebellion, they deemed it time for patriots to speak. Accordingly, they called a representative body together in Charlotte, N. C., which by unanimous resolution declared the people free and independent, and that all laws and commissions from the king were henceforth null and void. In their Declaration were such resolutions as these: 'We do hereby dissolve the political bands which have connected us with the mother-country, and hereby absolve ourselves from all allegiance to the British crown' .... 'We hereby declare ourselves a free and independent people; are, and of right ought to be, a sovereign and self-governing association, under control of no power other than that of our God and the general government of Congress; to the maintenance of which we solemnly pledge to each other our mutual cooperation and our lives, our fortunes and our most sacred honor.' ... That assembly was composed of twenty-seven staunch Calvinists, just one-third of whom were ruling elders in the Presbyterian Church, including the president and secretary; and one was a Presbyterian clergyman. The man who drew up that famous and important document was the secretary, Ephraim Brevard, a ruling elder of the Presbyterian Church and a graduate of Princeton College. Bancroft says of it that it was, 'in effect, a declaration as well as a complete system of government.' (U.S. Hist. VIII, 40). It was sent by special messenger to the Congress in Philadelphia, and was published in the Cape Fear Mercury, and was widely distributed throughout the land. Of course it was speedily transmitted to England, where it became the cause of intense excitement.

"The identity of sentiment and similarity of expression in this Declaration and the great Declaration written by Jefferson could not escape the eye of the historian; hence Tucker, in his Life of Jefferson, says: 'Everyone must be persuaded that one of these papers must have been borrowed from the other.' But it is certain that Brevard could not have 'borrowed' from Jefferson, for he wrote more than a year before Jefferson; hence Jefferson, according to his biographer, must have 'borrowed' from Brevard. But it was a happy plagiarism, for which the world will freely forgive him. In correcting his first draft of the Declaration it can be seen, in at least a few places, that Jefferson has erased the original words and inserted those which are first found in the Mecklenberg Declaration. No one can doubt that Jefferson had Brevard's resolutions before him when he was writing his immortal Declaration."10

This striking similarity between the principles set forth in the Form of Government of the Presbyterian Church and those set forth in the Constitution of the United States has caused much comment. "When the fathers of our Republic sat down to frame a system of representative and popular government," says Dr. E. W. Smith, "their task was not so difficult as some have imagined. They had a model to work by."11

"If the average American citizen were asked, who was the founder of America, the true author of our great Republic, he might be puzzled to answer. We can imagine his amazement at hearing the answer given to this question by the famous German historian, Ranke, one of the profoundest scholars of modern times. Says Ranke, 'John Calvin was the virtual founder of America.'"12

D'Aubigne, whose history of the Reformation is a classic, writes: "Calvin was the founder of the greatest of republics. The Pilgrims who left their country in the reign of James I, and landing on the barren soil of New England, founded populous and mighty colonies, were his sons, his direct and legitimate sons; and that American nation which we have seen growing so rapidly boasts as its father the humble Reformer on the shore of Lake Leman."13

Dr. E. W. Smith says, "These revolutionary principles of republican liberty and self-government, taught and embodied in the system of Calvin, were brought to America, and in this new land where they have borne so mighty a harvest were planted, by whose hands? — the hands of the Calvinists. The vital relation of Calvin and Calvinism to the founding of the free institutions of America, however strange in some ears the statement of Ranke may have sounded, is recognized and affirmed by historians of all lands and creeds."14

All this has been thoroughly understood and candidly acknowledged by such penetrating and philosophic historians as Bancroft, who far though he was from being Calvinistic in his own personal convictions, simply calls Calvin "the father of America," and adds: "He who will not honor the memory and respect the influence of Calvin knows but little of the origin of American liberty."

When we remember that two-thirds of the population at the time of the Revolution had been trained in the school of Calvin, and when we remember how unitedly and enthusiastically the Calvinists labored for the cause of independence, we readily see how true are the above testimonies.

There were practically no Methodists in America at the time of the Revolution; and, in fact, the Methodist Church was not officially organized as such in England until the year 1784, which was three years after the American Revolution closed. John Wesley, great and good man though he was, was a Tory and a believer in political non-resistance. He wrote against the American "rebellion," but accepted the providential result. McFetridge tells us: "The Methodists had hardly a foothold in the colonies when the war began. In 1773 they claimed about one hundred and sixty members. Their ministers were almost all, if not all, from England, and were staunch supporters of the Crown against American Independence. Hence, when the war broke out they were compelled to fly from the country. Their political views were naturally in accord with those of their great leader, John Wesley, who wielded all the power of his eloquence and influence against the independence of the colonies. (Bancroft, Hist. U.S., Vol. VII, p. 261.) He did not foresee that independent America was to be the field on which his noble Church was to reap her largest harvests, and that in that Declaration which he so earnestly opposed lay the security of the liberties of his followers."15

In England and America the great struggles for civil and religious liberty were nursed in Calvinism, inspired by Calvinism, and carried out largely by men who were Calvinists. And because the majority of historians have never made a serious study of Calvinism they have never been able to give us a truthful and complete account of what it has done in these countries. Only the light of historical investigation is needed to show us how our forefathers believed in it and were controlled by it. We live in a day when the services of the Calvinists in the founding of this country have been largely forgotten, and one can hardly treat of this subject without appearing to be a mere eulogizer of Calvinism. We may well do honor to that Creed which has borne such sweet fruits and to which America owes so much.

Footnotes:

1Hist. U. S., I, p. 463.
2Presbyterians and the Revolution, p. 49.
3They Seek a Country, J. G. Slosser, editor, p. 155.
4Harper's Monthly. June and July, 1872.
5The'United Netherlands, III., p. 121.
6The United Netherlands, IV., pp. 548, 547.
7English Literature, II., p. 472.
8Address on, "The Westminster Standards and the Formation of the American Republic.
9Hist. U.S., X., p. 77.
10Calvinism in History, pp. 85-88.
11The Creed of Presbyterians, p. 142.
12Id. p. 119.
13Reformation in the Time of Calvin, I., p. 5.
14The Creed of Presbyterians, p. 132.
15Calvinism in History, p. 74.


TOPICS: History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: boettnerfraud; presbyterianfantasy; revisedhistory
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

of course in contrast your cult worships it’s founding prophet Machen. Tsk, tsk...


121 posted on 07/05/2011 3:03:47 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"All men are indeed created equal — equally fallen and equally in need of God’s grace..."

That must be the Jim Crow version of Christianity that Calvinists practice. We are all equal, separate, but equal and some more equal than others...LOL How can you keep a straight face when you post that nonsense.

122 posted on 07/05/2011 3:04:02 PM PDT by Natural Law (For God so loved the world He did not send a book.)
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To: Diamond
As i said Calvinism is incompatible with missionary work -- see how the Union Baptists like Abner Smith and Ariel Dancer followed the "two seeds" Calvinist doctrine that it was foolish to present the Word to the non-elect and that the elect would be won without missionaries
123 posted on 07/05/2011 3:04:54 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Alex Murphy
Recycling again? What's the matter, Alex, can't find anymore uncopyrighted GIFs to post as examples of your wit?
124 posted on 07/05/2011 3:07:19 PM PDT by Natural Law (For God so loved the world He did not send a book.)
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To: Diamond
caricature of Limited Atonement and Double Predestination

Hardly -- Limited Atonement says that Christ's salvation was not sufficient to save the entire world and denies the Bible itself as the Bible asserts that Christ was the Savior for all mankind. Double Predestination is refuted in Ezekiel 33:12-16 -- God is the one who does the saving, but man damns himself from his own hands -- God does not, as followers of Calvin believe -- pre-program someone to do evil and then pre-damns them to hell

Calvin did not evangelize France. Remigius did that in 496 AD -- repeated again, Calvin didn't evangelize anywhere, he just set up a police state in Geneva

you stated that in one year Calvin sent out 142 folks to go "around the world" -- firstly, saying that Calvin sent out more folks then than the modern day Pentecostals/Methodists/Baptist do today is wrong secondly, this is speculation and thirdly "around the world" -- that's not even clarified, Calvin didn't send any folks to convert folks outside Europe did he?

As I said The missionary movement was founded by Christ. There is no such thing as "modern missionary movement" indicating a discontinuation with the original message to spread the Word of Christ -- the commission given by Christ Himself. followers of Calvin did not "start a modern missionary movement" unless you acknowledge that Calvinism is separate, distinct and different from Christianity.

125 posted on 07/05/2011 3:10:43 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

err.. your post means “fellow cult members”, right?


126 posted on 07/05/2011 3:11:24 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Natural Law; BlueDragon
NL to BD: Of the Delegates who actually met to negotiate the Constitution history recognizes six as actual authors of the Constitution. Of these six none were Presbyterians or Methodists:

Interesting -- NONE....

127 posted on 07/05/2011 3:12:24 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Natural Law; BlueDragon
NL to BD: Of the Delegates who actually met to negotiate the Constitution history recognizes six as actual authors of the Constitution. Of these six none were Presbyterians or Methodists:

Interesting -- NONE....

In fact the majority of founding fathers were Episcopalians (and probably rolling in their graves when they hear Genie Robinson squeak)

128 posted on 07/05/2011 3:13:25 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Natural Law
This is what Calvinism teaches:



"Calvinism is the Gospel and to teach Calvinism is in fact to preach the Gospel."
Arthur C. Custance, The Sovereignty of Grace, 1979.
"Calvinism is evangelicalism in its purest and only stable expression."
B.B. Warfield, Calvin and Augustine, ed. Samuel G. Craig, 1956.
"We believe with the great Baptist preacher, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, that Calvinism is just another name for Christianity."
John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism, 1991.

now the followers of Calvin want to claim that they are the only real Americans? That's funny....

129 posted on 07/05/2011 3:15:04 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: BlueDragon; Natural Law
bd: This thread was about the 4th of July. Try to stay on topic, would you?

Actually BD -- your posts went off the topic starting from the first, in post 12 and then post 27. Please refrain from giving others advice that you do not follow yourself.

130 posted on 07/05/2011 3:18:42 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: BlueDragon; Natural Law

Though it would be interesting to know if you BD, believe that Charles TAze Russell, Joseph Smith, Ellen G White etc. are reformatters, continuing in the same tradition as the original reformatters


131 posted on 07/05/2011 3:20:25 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Siena Dreaming

You wrote: “I was speaking specifically of the Puritans who settled the NE, not the Framers who were a couple of generations later.”

You only needed to go to the link in my previous post. There you would have found your answer.

Here it is again:

Primary Source Documents Pertaining to Early American History
http://www.constitution.org/primarysources/primarysources.html


132 posted on 07/05/2011 4:25:23 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ("I used to think Obama was an empty suit but now I think he has filled his pants." ~badgerlandjim)
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To: Natural Law

Oh yeah? Then what is this;

which were your own words directed at me. I objected to your accusation of me being, in your own words, in some sort of "open war". I was simply discussing the issues.

More false smokescreen lies from you here;

What's up with that garbage? I've never said such a thing, much less "blathered on about so often".

Never alluded to such here, or elsewhere BUT, I see the false accusations as being employed to divert attention from your own failure to refute the points I've raised. I assume that's the goal. Like I said, you're the master here, of that sort of deceit. You have yourself fooled? I guess that's a start...

The more you post, the more you prove me right!

What a smokescreen. I pointed out that the idea of freedom from the tyranny of earthly kings, didn't flow from some pope of the time preceding the likes of Calvin. To the contrary, the papacy of that time was vehemently against such an idea. (Unless perhaps some king or another was on the outs with them, in which case, hey, all bets were off, hehheh...)

I challenged one and all "name that pope!". You claim (or wish to imply) that one of these earlier popes (of the time period I was discussing) were all for "freedom"? (that was the criteria, mind you)

When you attempted that, using the example you did, I pointed out that that pope was only against slavery of Roman Catholic (converts mainly, for this particular discussion). Slavery was quite all right with them, otherwise. In fact, popes of the time period even went so far as recommend it! (as outlined in post#103)

You still have failed to name one pope of that time or era that fits the set criteria --- that of advocating that men are desired by God to live free from the tyranny of earthly kings.

I called you on the insults and lies (having nothing to do with the subject matter), then you accuse me of having a "martyr complex" (which is itself a form of insult) while you otherwise busy yourself heaping yet more insult and false accusation my way.

Then continuing, you otherwise insinuate I have no case because, as you say;

What utter garbage. It doesn't matter one wit what my background is, or is not.

None of this is "about" me, no matter how hard you try to make it that way (to distract others from uncomfortable truths).

Truth stands independent of any relationship on my part, or lack thereof, with some corrupt Roman clown from centuries ago.

133 posted on 07/05/2011 4:27:33 PM PDT by BlueDragon (tonto he got smart said listenkimmosabe, kissmyass I boughtaboat, I'm headedout to sea)
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To: Cronos
Happy Presbyterian Rebellion Day, everybody!
134 posted on 07/05/2011 4:34:07 PM PDT by BlueDragon (tonto he got smart said listenkimmosabe, kissmyass I boughtaboat, I'm headedout to sea)
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To: BlueDragon
"You can't fight an open war against the Church and denounce its clergy, doctrines and dogma's..."

So you obviously are not an English major (we've ruled out History and Theology too). In in Modern English the word "You" is a second-person personal pronoun, both singular and plural, and with both nominative and objective cases. Would you (singular) have felt more comfortable had I used "ya'll" or would your regional dialect require me to be more specific and use "all ya'll" for the plural?

135 posted on 07/05/2011 4:52:47 PM PDT by Natural Law (For God so loved the world He did not send a book.)
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To: Natural Law; Alex Murphy
You're complaining about the gif? Why, don't that beat all...
Can't you SEE? You heaped a bunch of nastiness & abuse, with a variety of insinuation and false accusation, then said, right after, in the very same post;

Do you even listen to yourself talk?!?

I guess not. That must be somebody else's job. Like everyone or anyone other than yourself. My, my, aren't we lucky to hear from you? We're all luckier than you. You don't "hear" so good...

I'm counting my many blessings as we speak...

136 posted on 07/05/2011 4:56:03 PM PDT by BlueDragon (tonto he got smart said listenkimmosabe, kissmyass I boughtaboat, I'm headedout to sea)
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To: Natural Law

You were directing the comment towards me. There was nothing else in context in this thread, no discussion with others to suggest a greater "you", as a group, being in "open war" with your clergy, nor have I identified myself as being part of some group in "open war" with that which you desperately protect--as you dish out insult left and right, all along the way. (it's your style)

Save your self-important, sneering lectures for your own children. I'm sure they'll love you for it.

But hey, you win again. You've succeeded in dragging the discussion off into the bushes.

It's a technique frequently employed in internet discussions by those not wishing to discuss issues on their merits, in an effort to distract bystanders from the various evidences.

You're a master at that, too. Congratulations.

Happy Presbyterian Rebellion Day, Everybody!

137 posted on 07/05/2011 5:12:20 PM PDT by BlueDragon (tonto he got smart said listenkimmosabe, kissmyass I boughtaboat, I'm headedout to sea)
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To: Cronos

Nope. Stayed right on topic, when not deflected by rude insult. Try reading the article.

Happy Presbyterian Rebellion Day, Everybody!

138 posted on 07/05/2011 5:32:07 PM PDT by BlueDragon (tonto he got smart said listenkimmosabe, kissmyass I boughtaboat, I'm headedout to sea)
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To: BlueDragon
"You were directing the comment towards me."

I was directing it to all ya'll whiny Calvinists. If ya'll want to consider yourself a subset of that group I would agree.

139 posted on 07/05/2011 5:40:16 PM PDT by Natural Law (For God so loved the world He did not send a book.)
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To: Natural Law
But I'm not a Calvinist. So where does that leave you now?

In the hole you insisted on digging for yourself, that's where. Loser.

140 posted on 07/05/2011 5:46:52 PM PDT by BlueDragon (tonto he got smart said listenkimmosabe, kissmyass I boughtaboat, I'm headedout to sea)
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