Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Did Mary Have Other Children?
Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry ^ | Unknown | Matt Slick

Posted on 06/13/2011 3:57:07 PM PDT by HarleyD

One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).

As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?

The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)

An initial reading of these biblical texts seems to clear up the issue: Jesus had brothers and sisters. But such obvious scriptures are not without their response from Catholic Theologians. The primary argument against these biblical texts is as follows:

In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.

There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.

Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.

In both of these verses, if the brothers of Jesus are not brothers, but His cousins, then who is His mother and who is the carpenters father? In other words, mother here refers to Mary. The carpenter in Matt. 13:55, refers to Joseph. These are literal. Yet, the Catholic theologian will then stop there and say, "Though carpenters son refers to Joseph, and mother refers to Mary, brothers does not mean brothers, but "cousins." This does not seem to be a legitimate assertion. You cannot simply switch contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence unless it is obviously required. The context is clear. This verse is speaking of Joseph, Mary, and Jesus brothers. The whole context is of familial relationship: father, mother, and brothers.

Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm

There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."

He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."

Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.

To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."

This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Gods will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.

Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?

Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.

The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.

It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: brothers; cousins; mary; nameonebrother; relatives; stepchildren
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 741-760761-780781-800 ... 1,021-1,026 next last
To: Natural Law; Lera
I know -- Lera's posts say that that usage of a title signifies the two are the same, right?

This is just what the atheists say that The Titles "king of kings","Lord of lords", "God of Light" even "El" were all applied to pagan gods/kings from Osiris to Baal to Nebuchadnezzar

Those who argue against Christianity say that that just because Jesus was given the same titles as Osiris, Jesus is the same as Osiris, the Egyptian God -- why do your posts, Lera, have the same argument?

761 posted on 06/20/2011 12:41:09 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 759 | View Replies]

To: Natural Law; bkaycee; MarkBsnr; Notwithstanding; buccaneer81; one Lord one faith one baptism; ...
And we got some more indication of the philosophy of bkaycee's group

She said psalm 69 actually predicts what the NT consistently and matter of factly declares

This is quite strange as just 2 verses before her quoted excerpt, Psalm 69 says

5O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.

I asked bkaycee, So, if this is supposed to be Jesus, are you, bkaycee, saying that Jesus sinned? why? Why do you say that? Christianity says Jesus was without sin -- don't you believe that? , but no answer yet on this strange new philosophy of Bkaycee's group -- that Jesus sinned.

762 posted on 06/20/2011 12:49:07 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 759 | View Replies]

To: bkaycee
I'm referring to your logic -- are you saying Jesus is referred to on Psalm 69:5 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.?
763 posted on 06/20/2011 12:51:07 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 760 | View Replies]

To: Lera; stargazer; Natural Law
lera -- don't you want to answer why “king of kings”, “lord of lord”, “god of light” are all titles that were given to old pagan gods — and given to Christ or the Father. Does this, according to your logic, make them pagan gods? how could you or anyone believe this?

stargazer -- Lera posts are always funny, inaccurate biblically and historically and really give me a chuckle or too with their umpteen errors!

I can share you some posts that talk about how Catholics are supposedly not American and other incredibly historical inaccuracies, plus loads of biblical ones, like this one here (which is going into the chuckle folder!)

764 posted on 06/20/2011 1:02:13 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 748 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
Answering again, Jesus is Sinless. Please attributing false beliefs to me. Lying is still a sin according to the Roman Church correct?

Did Jesus Quote from Psalm 69?

The Roman church thinks Psalm 69 is messianic.

Did Jesus brother think he was crazy? Perhaps estranged?

765 posted on 06/20/2011 1:10:55 PM PDT by bkaycee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 763 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

Have you stopped beating your wife?


766 posted on 06/20/2011 1:12:27 PM PDT by bkaycee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 764 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
I am going to go ahead and say it, the Catholic worship of Mary is heresy.

wor-ship: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power

Where do you people come up with the idea that Catholics worship Mary? Catholics do not worship Mary. Nor are Catholics heretics.

767 posted on 06/20/2011 1:25:07 PM PDT by mtg
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Cronos; bkaycee; madison10; Natural Law; MarkBsnr; D-fendr; dangus
bkaycee: psalm 69 actually predicts what the NT consistently and matter of factly declares

5O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.
So, if this is supposed to be Jesus, are you, bkaycee, saying that Jesus sinned?

Let's see how Douay Rheims explains it:

Psalm 68:
Salvum me fac, Deus. Christ in his passion declareth the greatness of his sufferings, and the malice of his persecutors the Jews; and foretelleth their reprobation.

1 Unto the end, for them that shall be changed; for David.
2 SAVE me, O God: for the waters are come in even unto my soul.
3 I stick fast in the mire of the deep: and there is no sure standing. I am come into the depth of the sea: and a tempest hath overwhelmed me.
4 I have laboured with crying; my jaws are become hoarse: my eyes have failed, whilst I hope in my God.
5 They are multiplied above the hairs of my head, who hate me without cause. My enemies are grown strong who have wrongfully persecuted me: then did I pay that which I took not away.
6 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my offences are not hidden from thee:
7 Let not them be ashamed for me, who look for thee, O Lord, the Lord of hosts. Let them not be confounded on my account, who seek thee, O God of Israel.
8 Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame hath covered my face.
9 I am become a stranger to my brethren, and an alien to the sons of my mother.
10 For the zeal of thy house hath eaten me up: and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

(Footnote:) [6] "My foolishness and my offences"... which my enemies impute to me: or the follies and sins of men, which I have taken upon myself.

Douay Rheims is officially Catholic is it not?

768 posted on 06/20/2011 1:45:46 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 747 | View Replies]

To: OLD REGGIE
when the Unitarian was asked if he believed in anything

, the man responded, "Oh no; I'm a Unitarian."

769 posted on 06/20/2011 1:50:25 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 768 | View Replies]

To: OLD REGGIE
A unitarian family moves into a new neighborhood. Their little girl finds a new playmate, and they are happily getting to know each other. One day, the playmate says, "We're Episcopalians, what are you?"

The unitarian child thinks for a minute and says, "I'm not sure, but I think we're League of Women Voters."

770 posted on 06/20/2011 1:50:45 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 768 | View Replies]

To: OLD REGGIE
What do Unitarians believe in?

Answer: They believe in nothing. They don't have a religion, they have a sort of group therapy.

771 posted on 06/20/2011 1:52:19 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 768 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

772 posted on 06/20/2011 1:52:32 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 724 | View Replies]

To: OLD REGGIE
What do Unitarians believe in?

From the horses mouth (uua.org).

Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion that encompasses many faith traditions. Unitarian Universalists include people who identify as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, and others. As there is no official Unitarian Universalist creed, Unitarian Universalists are free to search for truth on many paths.

To quote the Rev. Marta Flanagan, "We uphold the free search for truth. We will not be bound by a statement of belief. We do not ask anyone to subscribe to a creed. We say ours is a non-creedal religion. Ours is a free faith."

Although we uphold shared principles, individual Unitarian Universalists have varied beliefs about everything from scripture to rituals to God.

and elsewhere

This is not the only view of Jesus, the Bible, and Christianity within our faith. Unitarian Universalists can be Christian, Humanist, Pagan, Buddhist, Jewish, atheist, and more. A portion of Unitarian Universalists today identify as Christians, but even some Unitarian Universalists who do not identify primarily as Christians find inspiration in Christian ideas. Because of the freedom within our faith, there are many differing views regarding the role of Christianity in our religious community.

And under paganism

There are many Wiccans, witches, Pagans, and people with other earth-based spiritualities who lead and worship in Unitarian Universalist congregations. At last count, 19 percent of our members identified with an Earth/Nature centered faith. This is one of the fastest-growing groups within our faith.

So, yeah. Well. What the "UU on the street" believes, I don't know. I don't think I've ever met one. Officially, it looks like they jumped ship a long time ago.

And what is a "biblical unitarian"?

773 posted on 06/20/2011 1:53:16 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 768 | View Replies]

To: OLD REGGIE
What do Unitarians believe in?

The essence of UU lies in the proposition that everyone needs to seek the deity in his/her/its own way, that everything (except being a Christian) is ok as long as you tolerate and support all of the other choices made by other people.

774 posted on 06/20/2011 1:54:25 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 768 | View Replies]

To: OLD REGGIE
What are Unitarians ?

A Christian sect for those who have no real interest in Christ.

One where the answer to most important questions of faith is “Whatever”.

775 posted on 06/20/2011 1:55:11 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 768 | View Replies]

To: OLD REGGIE
Have you heard of the Unitarian branch of the K Ks?


776 posted on 06/20/2011 1:56:34 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 768 | View Replies]

To: bkaycee
you said b>psalm 69 actually predicts what the NT consistently and matter of factly declares

This is quite strange as just 2 verses before your quoted excerpt, Psalm 69 says

5O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.
So I ask you, So, if this is supposed to be Jesus, are you, bkaycee, saying that Jesus sinned? why? Why do you say that? Christianity says Jesus was without sin -- don't you believe that? , no answer yet on this strange new philosophy of Bkaycee's group -- that Jesus sinned.
777 posted on 06/20/2011 1:58:21 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 766 | View Replies]

To: bkaycee
bkaycee: Did Jesus brother think he was crazy?

Strange, just after your group's philosophy that Jesus sinned. How far does your little cult deviate?

778 posted on 06/20/2011 2:00:26 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 765 | View Replies]

To: OLD REGGIE; bkaycee; madison10

Oh and old_r — you want to repeat to bkaycee and madison the sola scriptura proof for “biblical unitarian universalism”?


779 posted on 06/20/2011 2:11:31 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 768 | View Replies]

To: Cronos; bkaycee; madison10; Natural Law; MarkBsnr; D-fendr; dangus
Resorting to your typically juvenile insults is indicative of an . If you have no answer resort to loud stupidity.

For those who have an interest in truth I will repeat the official and, I believe, entirely reasonable Douay Rheims explanation of the apparent discrepancy.

(Douay Rheims) Psalm 68:6 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my offences are not hidden from thee:

(Footnote:) [6] "My foolishness and my offences"... which my enemies impute to me: or the follies and sins of men, which I have taken upon myself.

780 posted on 06/20/2011 2:16:42 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 768 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 741-760761-780781-800 ... 1,021-1,026 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson