Posted on 06/13/2011 3:57:07 PM PDT by HarleyD
One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).
As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)
• Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
• Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
• Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
• John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
• Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
• 1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
• Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."
In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.
There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.
Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.
• Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm
There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."
He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."
Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.
To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Gods will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.
Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?
Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.
The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.
It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.
This is just what the atheists say that The Titles "king of kings","Lord of lords", "God of Light" even "El" were all applied to pagan gods/kings from Osiris to Baal to Nebuchadnezzar
Those who argue against Christianity say that that just because Jesus was given the same titles as Osiris, Jesus is the same as Osiris, the Egyptian God -- why do your posts, Lera, have the same argument?
She said psalm 69 actually predicts what the NT consistently and matter of factly declares
This is quite strange as just 2 verses before her quoted excerpt, Psalm 69 says
5O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.
I asked bkaycee, So, if this is supposed to be Jesus, are you, bkaycee, saying that Jesus sinned? why? Why do you say that? Christianity says Jesus was without sin -- don't you believe that? , but no answer yet on this strange new philosophy of Bkaycee's group -- that Jesus sinned.
stargazer -- Lera posts are always funny, inaccurate biblically and historically and really give me a chuckle or too with their umpteen errors!
I can share you some posts that talk about how Catholics are supposedly not American and other incredibly historical inaccuracies, plus loads of biblical ones, like this one here (which is going into the chuckle folder!)
Did Jesus Quote from Psalm 69?
The Roman church thinks Psalm 69 is messianic.
Did Jesus brother think he was crazy? Perhaps estranged?
Have you stopped beating your wife?
wor-ship: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power
Where do you people come up with the idea that Catholics worship Mary? Catholics do not worship Mary. Nor are Catholics heretics.
Psalm 68:
Salvum me fac, Deus. Christ in his passion declareth the greatness of his sufferings, and the malice of his persecutors the Jews; and foretelleth their reprobation.
1 Unto the end, for them that shall be changed; for David.
2 SAVE me, O God: for the waters are come in even unto my soul.
3 I stick fast in the mire of the deep: and there is no sure standing. I am come into the depth of the sea: and a tempest hath overwhelmed me.
4 I have laboured with crying; my jaws are become hoarse: my eyes have failed, whilst I hope in my God.
5 They are multiplied above the hairs of my head, who hate me without cause. My enemies are grown strong who have wrongfully persecuted me: then did I pay that which I took not away.
6 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my offences are not hidden from thee:
7 Let not them be ashamed for me, who look for thee, O Lord, the Lord of hosts. Let them not be confounded on my account, who seek thee, O God of Israel.
8 Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame hath covered my face.
9 I am become a stranger to my brethren, and an alien to the sons of my mother.
10 For the zeal of thy house hath eaten me up: and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.
(Footnote:) [6] "My foolishness and my offences"... which my enemies impute to me: or the follies and sins of men, which I have taken upon myself.
Douay Rheims is officially Catholic is it not?
The unitarian child thinks for a minute and says, "I'm not sure, but I think we're League of Women Voters."
Answer: They believe in nothing. They don't have a religion, they have a sort of group therapy.
From the horses mouth (uua.org).
Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion that encompasses many faith traditions. Unitarian Universalists include people who identify as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, and others. As there is no official Unitarian Universalist creed, Unitarian Universalists are free to search for truth on many paths.To quote the Rev. Marta Flanagan, "We uphold the free search for truth. We will not be bound by a statement of belief. We do not ask anyone to subscribe to a creed. We say ours is a non-creedal religion. Ours is a free faith."
Although we uphold shared principles, individual Unitarian Universalists have varied beliefs about everything from scripture to rituals to God.
and elsewhere
This is not the only view of Jesus, the Bible, and Christianity within our faith. Unitarian Universalists can be Christian, Humanist, Pagan, Buddhist, Jewish, atheist, and more. A portion of Unitarian Universalists today identify as Christians, but even some Unitarian Universalists who do not identify primarily as Christians find inspiration in Christian ideas. Because of the freedom within our faith, there are many differing views regarding the role of Christianity in our religious community.
And under paganism
There are many Wiccans, witches, Pagans, and people with other earth-based spiritualities who lead and worship in Unitarian Universalist congregations. At last count, 19 percent of our members identified with an Earth/Nature centered faith. This is one of the fastest-growing groups within our faith.
So, yeah. Well. What the "UU on the street" believes, I don't know. I don't think I've ever met one. Officially, it looks like they jumped ship a long time ago.
And what is a "biblical unitarian"?
The essence of UU lies in the proposition that everyone needs to seek the deity in his/her/its own way, that everything (except being a Christian) is ok as long as you tolerate and support all of the other choices made by other people.
A Christian sect for those who have no real interest in Christ.
One where the answer to most important questions of faith is “Whatever”.
This is quite strange as just 2 verses before your quoted excerpt, Psalm 69 says
5O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.So I ask you, So, if this is supposed to be Jesus, are you, bkaycee, saying that Jesus sinned? why? Why do you say that? Christianity says Jesus was without sin -- don't you believe that? , no answer yet on this strange new philosophy of Bkaycee's group -- that Jesus sinned.
Strange, just after your group's philosophy that Jesus sinned. How far does your little cult deviate?
Oh and old_r — you want to repeat to bkaycee and madison the sola scriptura proof for “biblical unitarian universalism”?
. If you have no answer resort to loud stupidity.For those who have an interest in truth I will repeat the official and, I believe, entirely reasonable Douay Rheims explanation of the apparent discrepancy.
(Douay Rheims) Psalm 68:6 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my offences are not hidden from thee:
(Footnote:) [6] "My foolishness and my offences"... which my enemies impute to me: or the follies and sins of men, which I have taken upon myself.
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