Posted on 06/13/2011 3:57:07 PM PDT by HarleyD
One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).
As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)
• Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
• Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
• Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
• John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
• Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
• 1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
• Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."
In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.
There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.
Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.
• Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm
There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."
He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."
Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.
To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Gods will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.
Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?
Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.
The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.
It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.
Careful, you're going to hurt yourself if you keep posting scripture to try and justify your false teaching...
As you posted, hear what the Holy Spirit has to say, NOT your Church...
And that's just what the bible teaches and what we believe...
Cronos to boatbums: It's amazing how contradictory your posts are -- not only on religion but also on mundane matters. On the one hand "crib, crub, ENOUGH, no personal remarks" and one the other hand your posts do the same (Kosta's got a nice list of these too). Aren't those posts hypocritical?...
I see that even with my absence, when there are no agnostics or atheists to badger, Christians—left to their own devices—just smother each other with the love of Christ. Aaaah, that wonderful agape at work...2,000 years, bonefires, daggers and counting... :)
What does that Bible verse say "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” [Matthew 18:20]? Musthave meant someone else...
We Christians say Jesus is God. Moslems consider Him just a prophet.
Leave us Christians (Lutherans, Presbyterians, Catholics, Pentecostals) etc. to discuss these among ourselves, thank you.
Nice -- do you know Greek? Which Greek? Koine?
Did you note my post said brother has shades of meaning because Aramaic and other Semitic languages do not differentiate between a blood brother/sister and a cousin or other
For your education, Greek is an indo-European language, not a Semitic language
If only you had even a microscopic shred of evidence to this claim...
Do you know any language that has gender assigned to inanimate words like rock, chair, bridge, etc.?
Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?
John ch 19
26When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
Some people would have every one believe that the woman who bore and raised the son of God also bore other children who were also followers of Jesus but so noacount that they could not even care for their own mother.
and this is plus the other scriptures that indicate the same thing
I think any one who would buy that just have not give it much thought.
There is no mention of Mary having other children.
This seems to be just a protestant and Catholic thing, the protestants will go to any length to let the world know that they believe the Catholic,s are a false church, but on more important issues like changing the sabbath from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week, they have swallowed that hook, line and sinker.
I do not know for sure who the supposed brethren of Jesus were but i really believe that the protestant Churches are the daughters of the Catholic church, and no i am not a seventh day advent.
I posted nothing but Scripture. I can't help it if you believe Scripture is false teaching.
As you posted, hear what the Holy Spirit has to say, NOT your Church...
Well, I'm sure that's what some want to believe is what the Scriptue I posted says. But it's not. The Scripture actually says "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Did you catch that last part - to the churches? Not what the Holy Spirit says to you personally, but what it says to the churches. Can you see the difference between what the Scripture says and what you posted?
And that's just what the bible teaches and what we believe...
Yeah right, except for that little problem with truncation. Seriously, y'alls twisting, turning, mutilating, and hacking of Scripture is a joke. Listen to the churches, as the Holy Spirit guides them; not you.
I’m Catholic, but frankly never had a problem with the concept that Mary could have had other kids. However, the verses you listed, the point you make - that is pretty convincing. Thank you very very much.
Indeed, Cronos, he does a fine job perseverating while at the same time whining about it. Yes, that’s hypocrisy.
Do you even know the difference between Greek and Aramaic/Hebrew?
Do you even know the difference between a semitic and an Indo-European language?
Do you know any other language besides English?
your posts have before shown an utter lack of knowledge that there are such things as cases: Genitive, Locative, Nominative, Dative, Vocative, Instrumental and Accusative in a language
Do you know what these are for?
Even in the 1800s, a Lutheran Scholar (Franz Pierper) said for in his Christian dogmatics that the perpetual virginity is the traditional view (in his opinion) for Lutherans.
They knew that if this was removed, the next step was denial of Christ's divinity -- as we see among many of the non-catholic posters here.
It's sad, isn't it? To talk empty rhetoric as if one knew more than the people who knew Christ is just egotistical.
It's like the maroon who talks about extra-biblical stuff and then says "oh, it's ok -- as long as it's one of my song-and-dance pastors"
Sheesh, these B-A'er groups like boatbums's fall under their own contradictions.
I keep hearing you guys sayin' that but what was revealed, to whom and when??? Surely you've got 'something' to offer to back up your claim...
John 21:25 "25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
Now, what Jesus did was to ensure that His disciples didn't come up with their own intepretations, but to stick to the faith He handed them
hence the need for the Apostles to ensure that their disciples and successors stuck to the faith taught to THEM by Jesus Christ.
hence we believe in the Faith as taught by the Ultimate teachers, Jesus Christ and handed down through the Apostles -- the Apostolic faith in the ONE Holy Catholic Apostolic Church
Do you even know the difference between Greek and Aramaic/Hebrew?
Do you even know the difference between a semitic and an Indo-European language?
Do you know any other language besides English?
your posts have before shown an utter lack of knowledge that there are such things as cases: Genitive, Locative, Nominative, Dative, Vocative, Instrumental and Accusative in a language
Do you know what these are for?
Neither do your posts reveal any knowledge on the bible, yet arguments based on hot air -- why?
But then you are calling the Apostle John a liar...Why should we believe John lied but you and your religion are telling the truth???
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John didn't lie...
I sure can...And there is no difference...I am the church...
No he didn't, but unless you are claiming that the entire Word, including the Word incarnate, can be completely contained within a book, or that John is claiming that his own writings contain all of the Word the passage clearly doesn't mean what you are implying.
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