Posted on 06/13/2011 3:57:07 PM PDT by HarleyD
One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).
As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)
• Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
• Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
• Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
• John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
• Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
• 1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
• Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."
In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.
There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.
Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.
• Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm
There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."
He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."
Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.
To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Gods will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.
Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?
Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.
The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.
It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.
The Magisterium is much more than that. It is the teaching authority of the Church. It consists of all of the bishops of the Church including the bishop of Rome (Pope) and to a large degree all of their predecessors. They are collectively acting under the direct authority of Jesus Christ who promised to protect the teaching of the Church:
"He who hears you, hears me; he who rejects your rejects me, he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me" (Luke 10:16)
They are under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through Apostolic Succession. Remember no bishop exists, or has ever existed who has not had the hands of a bishop placed upon him during ordination. This is a direct line directly to the original Apostles.
God did not take them lightly, they do not take themselves or their duties lightly, and I shall not take them lightly either.
Exactly..the sin was not TOUCHING THE ARK ..it was a sin of disobedience..
If they want to say the ark was Mary I guess it was fine for the pagans to "handle her"
Grace 101. "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Tim. 2:15.
Music to those of us who believe that God has given EVERY BELIEVER the ability to study His word of truth. Through the Holy Spirit, residing in each believer. We don't need to give our God-given abilities to understand His word to anyone else.
Do you then consider the differences in interpretation, both large and small, few and many, between those who call themselves Christians to be unimportant so long as each believes their own interpretation to be true?
Do you not consider the Magisterium and Catholics in general to be Christians and BELIEVERS with the same God-given abilities to understand HIS Word that you claim for yourself?
Yes.
Who?
The "Magisterium" is the refuge of last resort when all other smokescreens fail.
Prove it.
I gave you the Scripture. I have no intention of playing games with you.
It says nothing about giving the keys to anyone other than Peter.
I asked a question, you can’t give me a direct answer. Makes me believe that there’s nothing in scripture to support your position.
I’m all for sola scriptura, just it doesn’t back your position.
So how do you resolve a dispute.
Say smvoice believes x to be true and I believe something else to be true.
Are we both right? Are we both wrong? Is one of us blessed with the holy spirit? Is one of us not blessed with the holy spirit?
Every Christian should know their faith and should be able to defend their faith. However, scripture establishes the position of bishop, who has the responsibility over their flock. This is called the magisterium.
Part of the problem is because people have rejected the magisterium in favour of their own interpretation.
How many thousands of beliefs of every colour, odour and appearance use this as justification?
Jesus created one Church. Men have created all of those ever since.
“Where the bishop is, there let the multitude of believers be; even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church” -Saint Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, 1st c. A.D.
Where do your beliefs come from? Either God or somewhere else:
Where is the Gospel? "Hold fast to the traditions you received from us, either by our word or by letter." (2 Thessalonians 3:15)
If you guys do not hold to the traditions of the Church, how can you consider yourselves Christians?
I'm searching for any Scripture that would tell me that the Magisterium or the Pope would be necessary for my understanding of His word, or my Christian life. I cannot locate a single one. But I DID locate this:
"All SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Tim. 3:16,17.
Now if all I need is Scripture, and the Holy Spirit indwelling me leading me in His word of truth, tell me again WHY I need the Magisterium.
Because the Church doesn’t save, Mark. Belief that Christ died for your sins, and His death is all sufficient for your salvation is what saves. Strangely absent from the RCC.
If you are not saved, the Holy Spirit does not reside in you. It's that simple.
Interesting choice of wording. The Church was created to teach and to evangelize to the world.
Matthew 28: 18 11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."
That was not given any Tom, Dick or Luther. It was given specifically to the Apostles.
If you have no clue as to what Jesus is and does, that is not salvific. The Church was promised that Jesus will be with us always. Those who choose to walk away from the Church walk away from God. Those who believe as they will violate the repeated commands in the NT to believe as the Church describes. And at what point, does your own belief system violate the basics of Christianity which the Judge will determine at your Judgement? How much variation will He tolerate from Christianity?
Simply taking upon yourself the authority of determining your own beliefs puts you at variance from Christianity.
But let me ask you something while you're here: When did the Church begin? Could you give me Scriptures, if possible, to back up your answer? Thanks.
You're wrong. Tradition precedes Scripture which was chosen as a result of Scripture, not vice versa.
Of course, we non-Catholics have no problem with pointing out where they have erred on a number of very clear Scriptural, first-century doctrines, but for most of them they would rather “go down with the ship” so to speak than ever openly admit their “infallible” magesterium made mistakes.
Consensus Patrum is the authority, rather individual Fathers who wandered away from the Faith.
They have bet their eternity on trusting fallible men to be faultless based only upon those very men's proclamation of infallibility.
Negative. We trust in the words of Jesus Christ and in the creation of His Church. We do not take it upon ourselves to create our own doctrines. That is Scripturally forbidden. I am surprised that so many Protestants claim that authority.
So, prior to 1500 or so, no one was saved?
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